A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#441

Post by jakubp » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

hellbannedguy wrote: post #363

jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

"It was only much later that I found out that she basically cried for three days straight after that call." That got me crying.

Many people cry, shout or even try to manipulate you when you tell them their behavior (based on excessive attachment or dependency of some kind) is an issue for you. Many of the same people's loved ones realize that and are in a clinch: do I distance myself, hurting them? do I not distance myself, hurting self? It's not something you can just ask about: "I'm not as attached to you as you are to me, what do we do?"

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#442

Post by grae_QED » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

someguy321 wrote: post #82

I am seeing a lot of resentment in this thread. My best guess is that some of it is deserved and some of it isn't. Something that this thread reminded me of is the fact that several of my friends (millenial like myself) think that bringing children into this world is a bad thing to do- with global warming and other social problems making it so that this choice is just going to cause more suffering. I wasn't too surpr…

I'm pretty sure millennials don't want kids because children are expensive. I think this has more to do with the phasing out of the middle class than anything. You can't buy a house on a blue collar paycheck anymore.

Also, for many women, its very hard to juggle motherhood and a career----if they chose to go that route.

There is also a choice now. Women can use a plethora of contraceptives that weren't as common in my parent generation.

Honestly, this whole "antinatalism" thing is all smoke and no fire.

>When the millenial zeitgeist has drifted in a direction where this is a common opinion, I take it to indicate that our socialization has taught some of us that humans have little inherent moral worth as individuals, the values of a family are subservient to the values of globalism, and all is nihilistic considering that we have a poor shot at solving the worst of our problems.

Uhhhh, What?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#443

Post by starik36 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #430

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #424

24/7 bombardment with conspiracy theories and partisan political nonsense through television and the internet has turned the relationships and bonds in my extended family into weird factions of outrage addicts that are basically impossible to interact with for any extended amount of time unless you similarly develop a fondness for their flavor of outrage or for their passive aggression for when you don't. It's exhaus…

There's a lot of "Fox News robbed me of my parents" stories out there. https://www.salon.com/2014/02/27/i_lost_my_dad_to_fox_news_h... (2014, situation has generally got worse!) https://captainawkward.com/2020/12/09/1304-fox-news-stole-my...

I think the outrage culture is prevalent with pretty much all the news networks starting with CNN and on down the list. You can replace %foxnews% with any of them.

At family gatherings, find something else to talk about. I mean, people did have conversations 30 years ago, right?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#444

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #216

hackeraccount wrote: post #139

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

For me personally there are aspects I don't like about myself that are clearly a result of how my parents raised me. As a much younger man I was bitter about this, but I came to realize that my parents are human and made some mistakes, but over all did sacrifice a lot for my and my sister's well being. I also realized we didn't do a lot to make raising us any easier. So rather than remain resentful towards them, I ju…

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#445

Post by hogFeast » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

I think this article is fairly ungenerous to children (whether adult or not).

When you are a child, parents look after you. But there is an obligation that goes the other way too: parents expect you to do X or Y, parents (in some cases) expect you to look after them (the article notes that sibling estrangement results from caregiving, this happens in other cases too), and they may expect to you be a certain way.

I am a young(ish) adult, my mother looks after my aunt who is disabled, and is now getting ill herself...they are more difficult than I ever was as a kid. I just sat in my room and played Playstation, my mother has keys to a car, she will do X or Y regardless of what you or doctors tell her...it is very difficult. I think about leaving that all the time (my mental health is extremely poor, trying to care for someone when you can't care for yourself is difficult), you have to respect people who have helped you but the relationship with your parents moves on from that stage. Trying to treat adults like they are still in a parent-child relationship makes no sense. Personally, the main challenge I have is that my mother and aunt still view me as a child who understands nothing, so any piece of help I give (no matter how trivial) is challenged as if I was a child...so it works both ways...both parties have to realise that life has moved on. Trying to say: oh, but this person did this three decades ago is...weird, imo. Also, an adult can choose not to have a child, a child can't choose not have a parent...that dynamic is very different.

Tbf though, I think expectations of children in the West are significantly lower so maybe that isn't a huge thing for most people. But I think it is more to it than: entitled millennial whines about his parents who gave him everything...that just makes no sense (no child wants to have a bad relationship with their parents, you don't pick them, it doesn't work sometimes).

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#446

Post by whytaka » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #319

Daishiman wrote: post #30

I think if anything, the "shift" is more like an unveiling. There are and have always been extremely problematic issues in many families, it's just that in the past you would be denigrated for severing ties with your family for those reasons due to a sense of duty. So we now finally see the elephant in the room. We cannot go back to unseeing it, but we have to deal with it gracefully. To me this is just the continuin…

It also might be a reversion to the mean. E.g. One reason ancient Christianity was such a big deal according to historians (and resulted in billions of followers, etc.) was their profoundly different family structure when compared to what was happening in the roman culture and throughout the world. They brought Jewish traditional family structure to the ‘gentiles’ (read: everyone else who wasn’t omitted by blood line…

I wish you would elaborate more. What you're saying is very interesting. What were families like in Roman culture? How did Christianity change that?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#447

Post by civilized » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

Did anyone else grow up with an OK family life, but barely stay in touch with their parents? And they don't seem that fussed about it either? I appreciate what everyone's saying but it seems like "maybe once every few months" is a fine contact cadence for everyone involved in my case. We must be a bit on the spectrum or something.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#448

Post by dlp211 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

kristjansson wrote: post #403

Workaccount2 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millennials in their 30's have something crazy like 1/6th the wealth their parents did at the same age.

The dual of this is that many more millennials have living parents than their parents did at the same age.

citation needed. I highly doubt that this is true considering my (millenial) grandparents are still alive.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#449

Post by frankish » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #408

frankish wrote: post #373

I will try not to complain about my parents, but one of the big side-effects is that I do not want kids and have had a vasectomy to prevent that. Not the only reason, but a relevant one. I think more people should choose not to have kids and our societies/governments should stop pushing so hard to have more due to traditional values or so economies can grow. It is time for us to focus on quality and not quantity. I t…

This is an important topic that I think it unfortunately too taboo to discuss in most places and instances. On the one hand, the blanket belief that reproductive rights are core and cannot be curtailed is so ingrained in some subcultures that even broaching it immediately makes people think of human rights, and on the other, overcrowding is a thing and planning for the future is important. For example, I can't imagin…

First and foremost, I strongly believe in educating or encouraging, but am strongly against forcing/coercing.

A big part is likely just normalizing that it is okay not to have kids: in particular, there is so much social pressure to have them. There is also significant government incentive for a population to grow both for the economy and for retirement programs like Social Security.

I do think the best thing we can do is live by example. We can choose not to have kids. Additionally, being heavily involved with helping our friends or families that have kids may be beneficial as well: not just babysitting, but helping get them curious and engaged in school, save for their higher education, or ensuring the mental well-being of the family in general.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#450

Post by kevstev » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #424

24/7 bombardment with conspiracy theories and partisan political nonsense through television and the internet has turned the relationships and bonds in my extended family into weird factions of outrage addicts that are basically impossible to interact with for any extended amount of time unless you similarly develop a fondness for their flavor of outrage or for their passive aggression for when you don't. It's exhaus…

I just posted something very similar, and was surprised to see there were not more comments along this line. My family isn't red, but just in general dealing with them is kind of exhausting. The extended is fine to spend time with, but they are constantly in petty fights with one another and trying to align others to their "side" when I just want to find out who is coming for Thanksgiving and what I should bring. Some of them continue to make the same exact poor decisions over and over and then bitch about ~~the consequences~~ their lives.

There is only so much I can take, there are lots of other people in my life who I never view dealing with as someone I have to subject myself to but do not want to.