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Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

nytimes.com

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Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#91
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, there isn't enough evidence to say whether that's because of privilege or because women are naturally more intelligent than men. Second, we can sure talk about specific environments. Talk to any white kid who grew up in a black neighborhood, they sure don't feel like they're better off for being white. And, yeah, that's bad. We should be doing something to help that kid. But his bad experience doesn't c…

>First of all, there isn't enough evidence to say whether that's because of privilege or because women are naturally more intelligent than men. I'm amused. Does it matter which is true if men aren't getting the education they need? >Men still run the world. Also an old, old statement that reveals why we need to get rid of gender as a real concept. How many men run the world? Not most of them. In what sense does it ca…

Have I said something to make you think we shouldn't be fighting all oppression? No doubt the elephant in the room is class — in fact fixing class might just fix everything else automatically — but that doesn't mean we should ignore racism, sexism, homo- or Islamophobia.

But I have to say, at this point I'm not sure what you want from me. I'm advocating for the rights of other people according to my personal idea of what's right. That women are outperforming men in school is worrying from an educational standpoint, but I haven't seen any evidence that it's the result of endemic, institutional sexism against men— unlike that which evidence suggests still exists towards women, which, while very much improved in the last decades, is still real and dangerous. If someone thinks that it's gone because of one metric in which women have surpassed men, then I'm going to speak out against that. I'm going to speak out against that pretty loudly.

I'd be saying the same thing if someone thought that Obama being President means that no one ever gets stopped and searched for DWB, or that gay marriage in New York means no one in high school is going to call someone else a faggot until they kill themselves. We've come a long, long way. We're not done.

(For productivity reasons, this'll be my last comment on the subject, but I'll read your response if there's one— Just wanted to say I dug the civil exchange of ideas. Stay cool.)

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#92
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point: How is a woman being more likely to be raped not equivalent to a man being more likely to be the victim of a violent crime? When men are victimized it's their own fault, but when women are it's men's fault?

> How is a woman being more likely to be raped not equivalent to a man being more likely to be the victim of a violent crime? I don't know where I read this, but my understanding is that criminals are the people most likely to be victims of violent crime. For example, 50% of all murder victims are black men under the age of 25, and that is often associated with gang-related violence. I don't have sources for any of t…

The same group that is more likely to perform child molestation. What's your point?

It'd be interesting to learn whether this is actually true. The public is blind to incidences of molestation committed by women, so as I understand it many occurrences go unreported or undiscovered.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#93
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What would you make of a heterosexual, cisgendered man saying that he doesn't really think people with non-standard gender identities are discriminated against? So now that I'm a member of an "unprivileged" viewpoint, I'm granted the privilege of determining what constitutes ignorance and privilege in other people--you granted it directly by asking me. In this way you are propagating the inequality of privilege. It…

That's certainly a coherent position, but I feel you're talking past me. To wit: So now that I'm a member of an "unprivileged" viewpoint, I'm granted the privilege of determining what constitutes ignorance and privilege in other people--you granted it directly by asking me. You misunderstand. I don't want you to make a determination because you are a member of the oppressed class; I know the answer, and if you had ag…

>but I feel you're talking past me.

I believe this is because you're still focused on the content/intent of your post, and I'm focused on the effect of your post.

>I know the answer

Then you're only asking it to affirm your own opinion, _assuming_ that I will agree with you.

All of what you're saying about oppression and likelihood and ignorance is true. That doesn't mean that you aren't _in effect_ assigning out rights to grievance based on your classification of what sort of person is an oppressed group.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#94

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one who feels like, although men may 'dominate' the hard sciences, one of the reasons (among many others which I won't discuss) why girls may succeed at stages like this is because of the encouragement from a "girl power!" (perhaps, underdog?) mentality? If boys won…

I don't feel that a girl getting into the finals & cheering "girl power" is the most offensive thing in the world. I suppose she should have gracefully & demurely stood & curtseyed (while balancing a stack of books on her head) as the audience clapped politely.

I would think the hacker community should be welcoming to a bit more girl power & I for one welcome our new double x chromosome overlords :)

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#95
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First of all, there isn't enough evidence to say whether that's because of privilege or because women are naturally more intelligent than men. I'm amused. Does it matter which is true if men aren't getting the education they need? >Men still run the world. Also an old, old statement that reveals why we need to get rid of gender as a real concept. How many men run the world? Not most of them. In what sense does it ca…

Have I said something to make you think we shouldn't be fighting all oppression? No doubt the elephant in the room is class — in fact fixing class might just fix everything else automatically — but that doesn't mean we should ignore racism, sexism, homo- or Islamophobia. But I have to say, at this point I'm not sure what you want from me. I'm advocating for the rights of other people according to my personal idea of…

I think my point is that there _isn't_ a way to fight all oppression. Pretty women get objectified, but they also get status. Jocks get power/whatever, but they're also trapped with value systems that actually don't make them that happy.

Even the people holding the strings are puppets.

>I haven't seen any evidence that it's the result of endemic, institutional sexism against men

Apathy is its own form of sexism, which is to say: if selecting based on sex indicates educational disparity, then sexism must exist somewhere in the system.

>(For productivity reasons, this'll be my last comment on the subject, but I'll read your response if there's one— Just wanted to say I dug the civil exchange of ideas. Stay cool.)

Same here--thanks to you as well! I especially appreciate that you qualify this as civil; I know I go for the throat sometimes, and sometimes I think HN wants us to be more polite than effective, if you follow.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a child of the 90's, perhaps much different (or not) from some of you. I grew up in liberal(?) Silicon Valley. As a male, my entire life I've felt that girls were encouraged to succeed academically, received extra help, and greatly praised for their accomplishment…

On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you…

Do you think the two groups are equally likely to be raped?

No, but maybe not the way you are thinking...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_males_by...

It's a pervasive stereotype that it doesn't happen to men, but it's never addressed.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#97
The top three winners were all in the health sciences. Had they been in engineering, physical science, or computer science then it would have been more newsworthy given the gender gap in those fields.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One possible reason for this is that in those countries science/engineering is often one of the few routes an educated women has available. I've only heard this anecdotally and haven't been able to research it, but it could be one factor.

My mother was born and raised in the USSR, and got a master's degree in engineering (if memory serves correctly). I'll link her to this comment, and see what she has to say (I'll probably end up replying to myself on this comment, I don't know if she'd have any interest in signing up for an account.) edit: can we get a reddit-style "context" option? I want to link her to this comment, and display the two parent comme…

Click on the link of the comment you want to forward:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2782258

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#99
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fifth grade, my science teacher asked me if I'd copied answers off the boy who sat in front of me, even though my grade average was 20 points higher than his. In sixth grade, my math teacher was well known to favor the boys in the class and would only call on me if I was the only one with my hand raised. In eighth grade, another teacher chose two boys to represent the school at a math competition even though I had…

which is all true and good, but doesn't change the fundamental unfairness that it ranges from discouraged to taboo to say something like "Guy power!" or "Yeah, go men!" how many bright men are internalizing messages detrimental to their education and career choices? maybe a little guy power would help them keep going in the face of subtle etc.

But would it be news if three boys had won the science fair? When we get to the day when the fact that 'girls actually can do science!' isn't news - when the name of the headline isn't 'Girls sweep at Google Science Fair' but instead 'Innovative inventions' or something along those lines - then you'd have more of a valid point.
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