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Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

nytimes.com

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Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#41

Post by raganwald »

Helianthus wrote: post #32
raganwald wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that t…

you're saying that girls don't 'come from a place' where they can develop math and science skills. it's not wrong to celebrate overcoming hardship. it's wrong to assume that the hardship of being a woman has been overcome as if there's something implicitly more difficult for _every woman_.

I said nothing of the sort. I said that Rusiate Rogoyawa came from a place where people like him hadn't won Olympic medals. I said nothing about whether Fijians have hardships to overcome or whether they simply don't care about XC skiing. It is enough to note that there have been no medals for Fiji, and a medal would be unusual.

My claim is that this is similar to the case of the girls. We have plenty of uncontested evidence that women can be fine scientists. What is missing is a track record of girls winning science fairs, much less sweeping them.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#42

Post by jamesaguilar »

samfoo wrote: post #35
jamesaguilar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you…

You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that wome…

> You're cherry picking statistics . . .

All the statistics you picked are typically associated with choices the individual in question made. Some of them are also associated with mental disorders. While it sucks that men are more susceptible to mental disease than women, that's not a form of discrimination. On the other hand, women that become a member of the statistical sets I picked do so in typical daily interaction with men. They don't have the option to not be around men, nor would it be reasonable to expect them to make that choice if it were available to them. There's no equivalence between your statistics and mine.

> So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses?

No, we cannot.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#43

Post by jackpirate »

nancye wrote: post #24
ricefield wrote: post #4

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one who feels like, although men may 'dominate' the hard sciences, one of the reasons (among many others which I won't discuss) why girls may succeed at stages like this is because of the encouragement from a "girl power!" (perhaps, underdog?) mentality? If boys won…

In fifth grade, my science teacher asked me if I'd copied answers off the boy who sat in front of me, even though my grade average was 20 points higher than his. In sixth grade, my math teacher was well known to favor the boys in the class and would only call on me if I was the only one with my hand raised. In eighth grade, another teacher chose two boys to represent the school at a math competition even though I had…

I hear arguments like that all the time, and I'm skeptical.

It is impossible for you to know how many of those events were because of sexism, or how many were because of general incompetence on the part of your elders. I, as a boy, experienced everything you did, but would never have attributed it to sexism because boys are never taught to do that.

I've known brilliant, moderately smart, and downright stupid women. None of the brilliant ones complain about stereotyping. (They may talk about wishing there were more women in their field, but that is different.) These women simply go about being brilliant. It's only the one's who think they are better than they actually are who "get their panties in a bun". This is a convenient scapegoat that unqualified men simply don't have.

That said, I hope I'm misinterpreting the tone of your comment. I too would like to encourage more women to be technical. But the way to do that is to focus on the good things, not the drawbacks. Talk about Marie Curie in exactly the same way that you would talk about Einstein. By emphasizing the obstacles she/you had to overcome, you're downplaying her/your actual achievements.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#44

Post by raganwald »

thewisedude wrote: post #37
raganwald wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're not the only one, and your comment strongly reminds me of the question of why society frowns on "White Power" and "White Pride." I can't really think of anything to tell you that hasn't been said to people asking this question for the last fifty years or so, just pointing out that the issues of insiders vs. outsiders seem to be similar.

2 out of the 3 girls seem to be of south Asian origin(Indian?). Does that not seem like a statistical anomaly considering the percentage of south Asians in the US? Any comments?

I still can't think of anything to say about the unfairness of not being able to encourage boys with "boy power" that hasn't been said--rightly or wrongly--about "white power."

The possibility that 2/3 of the girls in question were from the Indian subcontinent doesn't spur me to greater creativity.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#45

Post by jamesaguilar »

jberryman wrote: post #31
jamesaguilar wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solidarity has historically been acceptable in disadvantaged groups and frowned upon when exhibited by privileged groups. This reasons for this should be fairly obvious.

Is there a way we can distill your point down further to an acronym that can be posted as the standard rebuttal to the gp's argument? It seems like we do this discussion everyday.

I suggest making a meme out of it. We have a lot of conversations in my workplace via captioned images and it ends up being a very productive conversation tool, because it forces the distillation of salient points in pursuit of brevity. It's also very entertaining. :)

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#46

Post by Symmetry »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #20
ricefield wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a child of the 90's, perhaps much different (or not) from some of you. I grew up in liberal(?) Silicon Valley. As a male, my entire life I've felt that girls were encouraged to succeed academically, received extra help, and greatly praised for their accomplishment…

On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you…

I very much agree with the bulk of your post, most people are surprised to learn that woman on man domestic abuse is not at all uncommon. To quote wikipedia: Straus and Gelles found in couples reporting spousal violence, 27% of the time the man struck the first blow; the woman in 24%. The rest of the time, the violence was mutual, with both partners brawling. The results were the same even when the most severe episodes of violence were analyzed. In order to counteract claims that the reporting data was skewed, female-only surveys were conducted, asking females to self-report, and the data was the same. Gay and lesbian couples also have similar rates of domestic violence.

However, due to differences in strength women are much less likely to be seriously injured or killed by domestic abuse by men than vice versa. On the other hand, battered men are less likely to receive help from society for various obvious reasons. We really have to work against domestic violence in general, rather than just "violence against women".

Outside of the home, though, almost all violence committed against strangers is done by men, whereas almost all the violence that women commit is some form of domestic abuse.

However, again, I agree that women often suffer discrimination in the workplace and suffer disproportionately from sexual harassment.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#47

Post by Scriptor »

credo wrote: post #30

>>Dr. Cerf said. "This is just a reminder that women are fully capable of doing same or better quality work than men can." I hope those those who needed a reminder about the capabilities of girls or women see this news. However, (and I realize this will be controversial) imo this result doesn't contradict the general notion that girls (in mainstream American culture) are discouraged (by societal and cultural pressure…

One possible reason for this is that in those countries science/engineering is often one of the few routes an educated women has available. I've only heard this anecdotally and haven't been able to research it, but it could be one factor.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#48

Post by emily37 »

Hmm. To me, the problem with "girl power", etc. is that, as a young female scientist, you're inundated with suggestions that girls are your "team" and boys are your rivals. If you hear enough about "girl power" growing up, you start to feel that you have to represent your gender well: that you have to beat boys on tests (though it doesn't matter if you beat other girls on tests), or that knowing more than a male colleague is something to be proud of. "Girl power" was what I said in elementary school when the girls beat the guys at soccer or something, but when you start to use that sentiment in relation to intellectual abilities, you foster a hostile work environment and you encourage intellectual competition rather than collaboration across gender.

On a related note, here's a NYT blog post that I saw recently that highlights the science fair winners' gender and just goes up in flames: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/13/girl-power-wins-at-... It ends by suggesting that Google hired Marissa Mayer and Susan Wojcicki because they would help recruit more women, which made me cringe, even though I know that the author probably didn't intend to make exactly that point.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#49

Post by duggan »

I definitely thought this was going to be an article about the juxtaposition of an all female cast of cleaning professionals with an all male science fair as a broad analogy for the "glass ceiling" effect.

Glad to see I was mistaken :)

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#50

Post by jackpirate »

jackpirate wrote: post #43
nancye wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fifth grade, my science teacher asked me if I'd copied answers off the boy who sat in front of me, even though my grade average was 20 points higher than his. In sixth grade, my math teacher was well known to favor the boys in the class and would only call on me if I was the only one with my hand raised. In eighth grade, another teacher chose two boys to represent the school at a math competition even though I had…

I hear arguments like that all the time, and I'm skeptical. It is impossible for you to know how many of those events were because of sexism, or how many were because of general incompetence on the part of your elders. I, as a boy, experienced everything you did, but would never have attributed it to sexism because boys are never taught to do that. I've known brilliant, moderately smart, and downright stupid women. N…

To clarify my point:

The way to get more women in technical fields is to highlight their success, not dwell on their obstacles.

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