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Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

nytimes.com

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Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#31

Post by jberryman »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #8
ricefield wrote: post #4

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one who feels like, although men may 'dominate' the hard sciences, one of the reasons (among many others which I won't discuss) why girls may succeed at stages like this is because of the encouragement from a "girl power!" (perhaps, underdog?) mentality? If boys won…

Solidarity has historically been acceptable in disadvantaged groups and frowned upon when exhibited by privileged groups. This reasons for this should be fairly obvious.

Is there a way we can distill your point down further to an acronym that can be posted as the standard rebuttal to the gp's argument? It seems like we do this discussion everyday.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#32

Post by Helianthus »

raganwald wrote: post #15
funkah wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think we could just celebrate that they're smart, but apparently we need to celebrate that they're smart and that they're girls. I think that sends a bad message, that girls are hothouse flowers or somehow need more encouragement for them to do well.

Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that t…

you're saying that girls don't 'come from a place' where they can develop math and science skills. it's not wrong to celebrate overcoming hardship. it's wrong to assume that the hardship of being a woman has been overcome as if there's something implicitly more difficult for _every woman_.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#33

Post by funkah »

raganwald wrote: post #15
funkah wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think we could just celebrate that they're smart, but apparently we need to celebrate that they're smart and that they're girls. I think that sends a bad message, that girls are hothouse flowers or somehow need more encouragement for them to do well.

Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that t…

Do you really think that Fijian skiiers are analogous to women scientists?! That is messed up.

I don't think it's amazing for a woman or a girl to be accomplished in math/science, that's my point. It happens all the time.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#34

Post by Helianthus »

Cushman wrote: post #25
ricefield wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a child of the 90's, perhaps much different (or not) from some of you. I grew up in liberal(?) Silicon Valley. As a male, my entire life I've felt that girls were encouraged to succeed academically, received extra help, and greatly praised for their accomplishment…

Shot in the dark— you're male?

thus demonstrating the conflict rather concisely. his/her* solidarity is taboo and you can attack him by saying he's just playing for the team _as if that's a bad thing._

would you do that to a girl? a more balanced equality would not qualify arguments based on group membership.

*just making a point with the 'her', I'm sure he's a guy, too.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#35

Post by samfoo »

jamesaguilar wrote: post #20
ricefield wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but I guess I'm starting to feel that girls are no longer "disadvantaged." Less interested, maybe, disadvantaged, not so much. EDIT: for context, I'm a child of the 90's, perhaps much different (or not) from some of you. I grew up in liberal(?) Silicon Valley. As a male, my entire life I've felt that girls were encouraged to succeed academically, received extra help, and greatly praised for their accomplishment…

On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you…

You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison?

I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them.

So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses?

To clarify: I think it's important that women are represented in all professions (obviously software/tech is of specific concern) if only for the fact that diversity breeds innovation and discussion.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#36

Post by jamesaguilar »

Helianthus wrote: post #29
nancye wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fifth grade, my science teacher asked me if I'd copied answers off the boy who sat in front of me, even though my grade average was 20 points higher than his. In sixth grade, my math teacher was well known to favor the boys in the class and would only call on me if I was the only one with my hand raised. In eighth grade, another teacher chose two boys to represent the school at a math competition even though I had…

which is all true and good, but doesn't change the fundamental unfairness that it ranges from discouraged to taboo to say something like "Guy power!" or "Yeah, go men!" how many bright men are internalizing messages detrimental to their education and career choices? maybe a little guy power would help them keep going in the face of subtle etc.

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/084/118/original/2u9jxps....

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#37

Post by thewisedude »

raganwald wrote: post #11
ricefield wrote: post #4

I didn't read the article in is entirety, but one line popped out at me, where one of the finalists says something like "Yeah! Girl power!" Am I the only one who feels like, although men may 'dominate' the hard sciences, one of the reasons (among many others which I won't discuss) why girls may succeed at stages like this is because of the encouragement from a "girl power!" (perhaps, underdog?) mentality? If boys won…

No, you're not the only one, and your comment strongly reminds me of the question of why society frowns on "White Power" and "White Pride." I can't really think of anything to tell you that hasn't been said to people asking this question for the last fifty years or so, just pointing out that the issues of insiders vs. outsiders seem to be similar.

2 out of the 3 girls seem to be of south Asian origin(Indian?). Does that not seem like a statistical anomaly considering the percentage of south Asians in the US? Any comments?

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#38

Post by Cushman »

Helianthus wrote: post #34
Cushman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shot in the dark— you're male?

thus demonstrating the conflict rather concisely. his/her* solidarity is taboo and you can attack him by saying he's just playing for the team _as if that's a bad thing._ would you do that to a girl? a more balanced equality would not qualify arguments based on group membership. *just making a point with the 'her', I'm sure he's a guy, too.

Not at all. I'm just pointing out that the corollary to "Solidarity has historically been acceptable in disadvantaged groups and frowned upon when exhibited by privileged groups" is that privileged groups have historically tended to perceive equality well before disadvantaged groups (and its true emergence).

As a member of the privileged class, your perception that you are not privileged isn't taboo, it's just wrong.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#39

Post by raganwald »

funkah wrote: post #33
raganwald wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what!? Let's say, for example, that we have a country like Fiji where XC skiing is rare. But a university student from Fiji he takes up the sport. He ends up representing his country in the 1988 Olympics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiji_at_the_1988_Winter_Olympic... Now, if he were to go on and actually win an Olympic medal, is it wrong of us to say, "Wow, that's amazing considering he's from a country that t…

Do you really think that Fijian skiiers are analogous to women scientists?! That is messed up. I don't think it's amazing for a woman or a girl to be accomplished in math/science, that's my point. It happens all the time.

I think it is unusual for girls to dominate a science competition of this sort, and I believe that the statistics back this up. I think that is entirely analogous to the hypothetical case of a Fijian actually winning an Olympic medal in cross-country skiing.

I know of no reason why a Fijian should or shouldn't be competitive in XC skiing, and I don't care to speculate as to whether there is some intrinsic genetic, cultural, or just plain lack of convenient access to snow reason why Fijians haven't won any medals yet, but if it were to happen, it would be unusual.

It might not be amazing that a Fijian should be an accomplished skiier, but it would be amazing to win a medal when there has been a long history of them not winning medals.

Back to the girls. There have been many great woman scientists. True. Have there been as many girls winning science fair competitions? How many times have the top three places all been male? How many times have the top three places all been female?

I think it's safe to be amazed or delighted at this result without saying anything about whether there are or have been woman scientists, or whether women ought to be or are accomplished scientists. It is enough for me that this result is amazing.

Re: Girls sweep at Google Science Fair

#40

Post by Cushman »

samfoo wrote: post #35
jamesaguilar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what basis do you think this? Simply because there are no longer any laws which explicitly disadvantage women? For example, do you think women are equally likely to be discriminated against on the basis of sex as men? Do you think they are equally likely to be abused domestically, or harassed on the street? Do you think men and women are equally likely to be the target of sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you…

You're cherry picking statistics: Do you think women are more likely to be homeless? Drug addicts? Do you think women are more likely to be the victims of a violent crime? More likely to be in prison? I doubt the numbers will bear out in your favor on any of these points were we to check them. So can we just agree that men and women have different strengths and weaknesses? To clarify: I think it's important that wome…

So men's weakness is a predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior, and women's weakness is... men's predisposition towards violence and irrational behavior.

I mean, it'd be funny if it weren't true.

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