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Why I will never pursue cheating again

behind-the-enemy-lines.blogspot.com

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Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#441

Post by Swannie »

pseingatl wrote: post #309

What bothers me about this episode is that it highlights what is wrong with education in America and confirms what many think about academia as being too insular. What is the “cheating” that Professor Panos complains of? In many of the cases the cheating was not the mindless copying of math problems from someone seated nearby. Instead, the professor asked questions which the students were to research and submit an an…

There is a skill called "critical thinking", another called "report writing", and it seems for this course "comprehension of a market, and competing technologies within this market".

Copy paste demonstrates or develops none of these, other than "report composition", and possibly "identifying worthwhile sources".

If you think consultants, such as McKinsey, require the later skills only, and NOT the former, you are rather misguided.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#442

Post by roel_v »

nostrademons wrote: post #431
roel_v wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Right, and total compensation for skilled software engineers is easily more than $150K" [citation needed] 150+ is still rather unusual, as far as I know. Glassdoor.com says that, for example, at Fog Creek (a company that is quite famous and brags about how well it pays its engineers; and has offices in NYC) the one engineer who filled in his salary makes between 92k and 100k. That's a long way off from 150k, and I'm…

Salary survey here on Hacker News 4 days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2763932 (When I looked at it last, there were actually a lot fewer responses in the The citation in the poll says that StackExchange's top end is about $200K.

Yes, I saw that survey, but I don't see why it's base salary only; the more logical reading of it is total compensation, and I think many people filled it in as such.

150k+ is the 93th percentile in that survey, and the whole survey is I think biased towards the upper end. But even without that, calling the 93th percentile something that a merely skilled developer can "easily" make is a stretch, to put it mildly.

All data contradicts it - not just this poll, glassdoor.com, other informal surveys, but also e.g. the bureau of labor statistics (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm)

Don't be fooled by people reporting ranges and then taking the top end. By that standard, if you go work for a Fortune 500 company people make 'up to 15 million' if that's what the CEO makes. Professional basketball players don't make 'up to 50 million a year', there are maybe a few who do that, but that doesn't make it attainable for the regular ones, or even the 90th percentile.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#443

Post by bluehat »

Panos wrote: post #230
bluehat wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like you should talk to the Dean. Publicly stating that you won't pursue cheaters no matter how blatant probably isn't something your school will enjoy having in the press, and it sounds like there might be a few other issues which, if documentable, could be a something your school may want to sort out. It also gives everybody a chance to explain their side.

I have the proposed solution at the end of the article. Please read that part as it is at the very heart of the point that I want to make.

I appreciate what you are trying to do but as a student I was consistently frustrated by peer presentations because I felt the quality of my education suffered. Likewise, while I'd be thrilled if somebody presented me with a high-quality video that would help improve my education, I would resent paying tuition to sit in a classroom and watch a recording that I could be watching from the comfort of my home in my off-hours. We attend school to learn material and context yes, but also for the experience and dialog of getting to ask questions to a world expert. That is what makes the education more valuable than reading a book. I am sad that you have chosen this as an element of your solution. However, if you publish that video or others online, please give us a link to it, it sounds wonderful.

Having students do individual research projects and then presenting can also be very hard on the students because one badly done presentation, if the material is never retaught, can create gaps in a student's education. This is particularly difficult for classes which are part of a sequence, where this lack of knowledge will impact a later class. You are creating work for yourself too, as the lectures which you teach which build upon these principles will frequently have to be adjusted to cover material which was not adequately expressed, and make it harder for you to recycle and perfect your slides.

Additionally, students in classes based on rotating presentations tend to specialize in what they presented. This gives them an unusual advantage on the test: the optimally localized behavior for a class on a curve is to learn the material, convey as little as possible while making the class feel well-informed, and then ace it on the test, thus lowering the curve. If you do insist on doing this, you should have the class' average success on the exam reflect in some way on the presenters.

This is the solution that I know http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2774695 I posted it on your website as well. I respect your desire to not have your class be fearful of you. Perhaps you could trade with another professor: you address his cheaters and he addresses yours.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#444

Post by wnoise »

So what can be done to change the incentives so a different Nash equilibrium is selected? Would it be possible to change the professor ranking rules so that the reviews of cheaters do not count for the average rating? A bounty per cheater caught? These both have their own poor incentives, of course, but brainstorming has to start somewhere.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#445

Post by [deleted] »

Dove wrote: post #382
lutorm wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He works for the University. If the employer is not interested in rewarding him (or even penalizing him) for doing something that not only is stressful but that takes tons of time away from his useful work, why should he? An example of what you are doing in your job for coworkers and society at large while being penalized for it by your employer would be appropriate here.

If the employer is not interested in rewarding him (or even penalizing him) for doing something that not only is stressful but that takes tons of time away from his useful work, why should he? Because it is the right and honorable thing to do in his position. If doing the right thing were always easy and profitable, we'd have no need for morals. There are lots of situations where people are encouraged and rewarded fo…

[deleted]

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#446

Post by hackinthebochs »

Dove wrote: post #426
hackinthebochs wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common misconception. The professor is there to perform research, only incidentally to teach. It's not his responsibility to police students. It's the responsibility of the entire system to have policies in place that effectively prosecute cheating. When that system fails it is not his moral obligation to carry that burden himself.

I disagree. The incidentiality of the teaching doesn't enter into it. As long as he is giving grades, he has a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to detect and deter cheating. (I do think the strategy he described -- spending two hours per student trying to force a confession -- is unreasonable. Detection, notification, and escalation to school enforcement is a reasonable approach. Giving up and blaming the s…

>he has a responsibility to make a reasonable effort to detect and deter cheating. I can agree with this. But in the face of an administration that is bent on turning a blind eye, or even punishing the teacher, he has no obligation to carry the burden of defending the integrity of the institution himself. Putting a reasonable effort into detecting cheating is his responsibility. It is not his responsibility to ensure that the students are properly prosecuted.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#447

Post by tyree732 »

spne wrote: post #434
StavrosK wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with just giving people who cheated a bad grade, rather than wasting hours talking to them?

One (not uncommon) scenario is when two identical (or high match) assignments are turned in, and the professor does not know if (1) the students collaborated or (2) one student cheated off of the other. Penalizing both students is clearly wrong if one student did the assignment properly without cheating, and the other student copied the first student's work. How can the professor determine which student cheated (or i…

> (2) one student cheated off of the other

You might believe that it's morally wrong to penalize the person who did the work, but I would have to disagree with you. Both Cheating and giving others the ability to cheat undermine the credibility of an institution and harm the legitimate efforts of others.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#448

Post by kahawe »

kahawe wrote: post #15

I don't know what it is with you US Americans and "cheating"... but it seems to be a very touchy subject in your culture, almost like violating someone's honors. I never understood that.

Why is this and my replies (with detailed descriptions) being downvoted? It was an honest question about cultural differences.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#449

Post by Afton »

AndyKelley wrote: post #246

Here's a radical idea: Get rid of grades. Let's think about the consequences of that for a minute. You still pay for college. There are still classes. There is still homework. Exams are unnecessary. Do away with prerequisites. In this system, everybody in class is there because they want to learn. It is the only motivating force. And what do we lose? Companies might look at grades for determining how well suited a po…

No, you'd still want exams as a focusing tool. But they'd be corrected, not graded. (and depending on your stance on pedagogy, they might be timed, closed book, or they might be take-home. )

Remember also to include advanced studies in your list. It was 'common but unconfirmed knowledge' that students from UCSC (where they have a 'narrative evaluation'+Pass/Fail option) would be passed over by medical schools since you couldn't reduce a student down to a GPA for the first-pass of application cuts.

I'm actually rabidly anti-grading, but I think it also has to start much, much earlier. I've literally gotten into shouting matches with (undergraduate) students who couldn't conceive of how they could function in school without grades. I found it even harder to explain to people how it could work than explaining how homeschooling/unschooling works.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#450

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Lewisham wrote: post #432
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What this, and indeed the whole monologue, emphasises for me is that the teachers should probably not be involved in the process of disciplining students. It's wasting their time and decreasing their effectiveness. Create a position (or probably department) for quality control. Automatically send "you plagiarised, warning" letters to the student and the person who paid for the course if the submitted work receives a…

Yes, this is probably the correct thing to do. Unfortunately, most universities are too cash-strapped for such a thing.

They're paying uni professors/lecturers to do admin work that they could pay a fraction of the same amount to have done. I know that in practice it's more complex than this - for example here it only works because the lecturer is not actually being paid by the hour; they're still under-utilising their lecturers.
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