Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#221

Post by lucisferre » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:22 AM UTC

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Speaking from personal experience (both as a student and a TA) nothing is worse than ECE professors for bad teaching or ECE students for cheating, neither aspect of this scenario really surprise me.

I think it is sad but telling that the author gave up so quickly on what is (as the OP pointed out) the basic expectations of his job, but it is also telling about the overall quality and current state of ECE departments that cheating is so prevalent. The solution isn't however, to pursue cheaters but to change the environment, but that isn't going to happen if every professor gives up after his or her first kick at the can.

I apologize that this partial rant isn't very constructive but I'm far to tired right now.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#222

Post by nknight » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:22 AM UTC

reason wrote: post #214

nknight wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your own admission, you are "not technologically inclined", so what is it that makes you think you achieved anything remotely like "the highest level of achievement"? You might think you did a good job, but not only are you obviously going to be biased, but you're probably totally unqualified to make that assessment in the first place. Your post just sounds like someone who was bad at the class and wants to blame…

What I got from his post wasn't that he deserved a better grade, but more willingness by the professor to field his questions. If other students felt this way, I really can't trust the author's claim that his low evaluation score was solely due to the fault of his students. Seems pretty unfair... The cheating, although not excusable, could very well be partially blamed on the professor.

All we have at this point is the word of someone who admits technological disinclination, says he received a poor grade, and publicly accuses Panos of racism. There's no real evidence here that any other student felt this way, nor that there was any substantial number of them (he doesn't even provide a number).

Panos has provided documentation, reasonable theories, refrained from naming students, and put his own reputation on the line. "nyustern" has simply whined about perceived slights, thrown anonymous accusations of racism, and vaguely claimed that other unnamed and unnumbered students felt the same way.

nyustern is free to voice his thoughts and feelings, but I don't think he should be free to anonymously throw serious accusations at Panos with no evidence.

There might be a serious personality conflict here, it's also possible Panos was a jerk. But at this point we have only the inherently biased word of a purported student who feels they didn't get the grade they deserved.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#223

Post by mentat » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:29 AM UTC

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

"who put in the most effort and demonstrate the highest level of achievement"

I've noticed a growing problem with people equating effort with achievement as the parent does. Just because one "works really hard" doesn't mean that one creates something of value. I'm not sure where this belief arose from, but it doesn't apply in school and it certainly doesn't apply in life.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#224

Post by Panos » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:35 AM UTC

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Let me start by indicating some logical flaws in the timing of the events: The office hours for the class were from 12.30 to 1.30, Monday and Wednesday. The class was starting at 2pm. According to your account, I showed up at 1pm, being 30 mins "late". Then the first student came in at 1pm and came out at 1.20pm? Then it took me another 50 minutes while I was running around? So I came to talk to you at 2.10pm, when I was supposed to be in the class? What time did I show up in class? 2.30, and half an hour late?

I do remember the incident but you are greatly exaggerating the timing. The first student was waiting, I showed up at 12.30 and she was out at 12.50. Then I did run down to the cafeteria to grab something to eat. Sorry, my blood sugar was running low, the line of students was getting longer, and I could not go and teach at 2pm for 3 hours straight without food. (Usually I was getting lunch at 1.30pm but with this line of students, things were not looking good.) At 1pm, I was back, we discussed the case and I continued the discussion with the remaining of the students in line.

You were waiting for two hours mainly because you were so worried that you showed up outside my office at 11am, a full hour and a half before the beginning of the office hours. Expecting me to be always in my office, and at your disposal, is understandable from the point of view of an undergraduate. But you may need to learn that professors have other tasks they need to accomplish during their workday.

Btw, I thought that the you got the joke about the "emergency" (that I had to grab something to eat), by obviously seeing me walking in front of you with a sandwich in my mouth. You can blame it to my bad attempt at humor.

Now that the timing issue is resolved, let me get back to the core of the argument, which I actually addressed in the post. It is the fact that I felt mostly sorry about: The fact that the cheating cases really changed my mood and attitude towards teaching this class, and this also affected the class dynamics. What you felt as unfriendliness was the direct causation of the cheating cases. It is very difficult to feel like hanging out with students when feeling that a very significant fraction of the class is actively trying to cheat. This the part that I said that I hated the most: the very different dynamics in class.

This is the part for which I should apologize: For now offering you the same experience as I offered to the students in prior semesters. Go and ask students that took my class in prior semesters. Or even check my ratings in prior semesters. I did not suddenly become an arrogant bastard.

PS: About the issue of a "true capitalist," yes I am a libertarian at heart. And I do believe that people respond to incentives. And I would strongly encourage you to read the article until the end.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#225

Post by badclient » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:36 AM UTC

My observation hanging out with friends of different nationalities was that foreigners are a lot more susceptible to plagiarizing than someone who went through the American HS system. Almost all my Indian friends who came here just for college ran into some kinda trouble with plagiarizing. The last time I got into trouble for it was in 6th grade when an entire assignment was scrapped because given the few online resources for the topic, almost everyone had the same paper. This was late 90s and the teacher gave us am earful about how we cannot be doing this and the seriousness of the offense. Sometimes I feel my counterparts in other parts of the world don't get this lesson until their first offense at an American college. Good percentage of my friends who got caught end up going to med school or getting degrees far more advanced than mine leading me to rule out that plagiarism is a strong indicator of longterm failure.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#226

Post by bluehat » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:36 AM UTC

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Sounds like you should talk to the Dean. Publicly stating that you won't pursue cheaters no matter how blatant probably isn't something your school will enjoy having in the press, and it sounds like there might be a few other issues which, if documentable, could be a something your school may want to sort out. It also gives everybody a chance to explain their side.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#227

Post by iammaxa » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:37 AM UTC

reason wrote: post #214

nknight wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your own admission, you are "not technologically inclined", so what is it that makes you think you achieved anything remotely like "the highest level of achievement"? You might think you did a good job, but not only are you obviously going to be biased, but you're probably totally unqualified to make that assessment in the first place. Your post just sounds like someone who was bad at the class and wants to blame…

What I got from his post wasn't that he deserved a better grade, but more willingness by the professor to field his questions. If other students felt this way, I really can't trust the author's claim that his low evaluation score was solely due to the fault of his students. Seems pretty unfair... The cheating, although not excusable, could very well be partially blamed on the professor.

I don't understand some of the negative responses directed to the professor (both in this case and in others; they seem to represent a popular sentiment). Why isn't blaming professors for cheaters analogous to blaming rape victims for being insufficiently vigilant against rape?

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#228

Post by badclient » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:44 AM UTC

Panos wrote: post #224

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Let me start by indicating some logical flaws in the timing of the events: The office hours for the class were from 12.30 to 1.30, Monday and Wednesday. The class was starting at 2pm. According to your account, I showed up at 1pm, being 30 mins "late". Then the first student came in at 1pm and came out at 1.20pm? Then it took me another 50 minutes while I was running around? So I came to talk to you at 2.10pm, when I…

I don't think being pissed at 28/108 students is a valid excuse for acting pissed at everyone. That is a major professional flaw and a post on how you plan to control your emotion may be appreciated by future students.

I have had professors that had me write huge essays and then proceeded to just put a huge ass check and never really read past the first paragraph. If I plagiarized and cited my frustration with all those other professors just glossing over hours and hours of my work, would you accept that excuse?

I guess what I am tryin to say is that your 80 students who did not cheat have as much right to be pissed at you as your right to be pissed at the 28 students that did cheat.

As for the evals, I always found them to be kind of a joke and would agree that the better grades you assigned, better your ratings would be. As for me, I was too lazy to bubble in stuff.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#229

Post by jamesaguilar » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:47 AM UTC

Panos wrote: post #149

jamesaguilar wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a different conclusion. There are several problems, but the biggest is his approach. Now, I'm not a teacher, and all those caveats. But in my imagination, my approach would be much less time-consuming. I cribbed this from my high school physics teacher. It involves little detective work and no long drawn out confessions. When cheating is detected, simply send a note to the student with the following: "I'm awar…

James, I did exactly what you suggested. Every single student came to protest. I believed that things would play out exactly as you are thinking. Unfortunately, they turned out very differently.

Huh, interesting. But I got the impression from your article that you typically had a discussion with the student, presented them with the evidence, etc. after they protested to you. That's a little different than my proposal, where in the case of protest you hand it off to the honor board immediately. I.e. the students should know that the only discussion is one where they risk suspension if they don't manage to prove their innocence. Also, from what I read, you actually sent out an email inviting students to come talk with you. Hard to see what other outcome there could be than students coming and taking up a lot of your time.

Think about it in terms of incentives and scarce resources. If the students know they can come and protest to you with no additional consequences, they will certainly do so, guilty or no. Everyone has heard the story of merciful teachers and cops that don't give a ticket if you cry. At worst, they are out two hours, and at best, they may get a higher grade with very little work. Basically, your time has become a commons whose use has no real cost to the individuals taking advantage of it, but from which they believe some value can be extracted.

The economic solution is to make sure the time costs something, so that the students will consider whether there's really enough utility in protesting to make it worth the cost. The cost is that if they protest, they run the risk of suspension in the event they are actually guilty. It should be obvious to students that this will be the likely outcome if they do protest.

Let me know if I'm reading you wrong because I really am curious if students protested even though any protest would result in an immediate referral to the honor board. Also, thanks for fighting the good fight even though it got you screwed in the end. We need more folks like that.

Oh, I didn't mention the one other advantage this approach has. If you quickly and forcefully deal with students who have violated class policies, I think there will be less emotional "splash damage." It's the same way a parent should not draw out a punishment over a long period of time -- make it hard, get it over with, and wipe the slate clean so you can smile at each other the next day.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#230

Post by Panos » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 4:47 AM UTC

bluehat wrote: post #226

nyustern wrote: post #189

Hi Panos. I was actually a student in your class last fall semester. To alleviate any doubt you may have, the class was known as “Info Tech,” and you had two sessions on Mondays and Wednesdays (2-3:15, 3:30-4:45 pm) in KMEC. Now I have a couple of problems with your post. Firstly, you attribute your lower evaluation rating of 5.3 for last fall semester solely to your lower tolerance of cheating. However, there is som…

Sounds like you should talk to the Dean. Publicly stating that you won't pursue cheaters no matter how blatant probably isn't something your school will enjoy having in the press, and it sounds like there might be a few other issues which, if documentable, could be a something your school may want to sort out. It also gives everybody a chance to explain their side.

I have the proposed solution at the end of the article. Please read that part as it is at the very heart of the point that I want to make.