Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#161

Post by Panos » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:53 AM UTC

derrida wrote: post #150

Panos wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justin, I am the professor who wrote the article. The 44 hours is not a number to show how much extra I had to work. Believe me, a 14-hour day is a pretty common thing for me. Teaching is only part of my overall job (I also have to do research, supervise PhD students, review papers, serve on committees and many other things). The 44 hours figure is given just as a contrast to the actual time that I spent in class. I…

I am an honest student. How would you feel about me being in your class? Not every student is at university in order to tick a box on the way to a middle class lifestyle. Some are there to learn for the sake of learning.

Derrida, most of the professors teach because of students like you. Nobody that I know enjoys teaching disinterested or bored students.

Of course, there are professors that fail to teach well, the students get disinterested, then the professor gets even more disinterested and teaches worse etc etc.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#162

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:53 AM UTC

akronim wrote: post #41

isn't this why you have closed book exams?

When I was in college, people would go to the "bathroom" during the middle of the exam, and then they'd actually wander outside, call their roommate, and have them read off the formulas needed from their textbooks. The invention of cell phones was a huge boon to cheaters.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#163

Post by abduhl » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:54 AM UTC

Panos wrote: post #145

justin_vanw wrote: post #83

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

Justin, I am the professor who wrote the article. The 44 hours is not a number to show how much extra I had to work. Believe me, a 14-hour day is a pretty common thing for me. Teaching is only part of my overall job (I also have to do research, supervise PhD students, review papers, serve on committees and many other things). The 44 hours figure is given just as a contrast to the actual time that I spent in class. I…

I think it would help if more people understood the time demands of teaching a course (neglecting other faculty duties, just looking at the teaching component). Many people have seen it only from the student side and not the instructor side.

From my experience, teaching a 3 credit course (meeting MWF for one hour each with no labs/recitation) requires the three hours for the course plus the following: 1. an additional 1 to 2 hours per class of prep. time to get yourself situated for that paricular class 2. 0.5 to 1 hours of meeting with your TA regarding grading and what is being covered in the course this week (more if the TA has a recitation session) 3. 3 to 5 office hours for students (of which a majority is not used, but still must be set aside)

All together, teaching a three hour course takes about 10 hours a week on the low end. Dealing with cheating students takes time from every portion of this 10 hours. You must waste time in class addressing the cheating. You must waste time in preparation thinking of ways to stop the cheating. You must waste time talking with your TA about the cheating. You must waste time dealing with students who will admit to "working together" but never "cheating" during your office hours.

The most important part of this, and the part that gets eaten up the most, is the office hours. This is where students should come to delve deeper into a subject or clarify material. Dealing with students during this time sets back students who truly have an interest in the subject and cripples students who have fallen behind (which will most likely lead to more cheating!).

While 44 hours over a semester sounds like nothing to most people, it is actually a significant amount of time wasted for the class.

As an aside, many students think that teaching is a faculty member's first and foremost duty. Depending on the school, this can range from absolutely true to downright false. Most schools have a layout on what they expect from their faculty regarding research, teaching, and service. Most schools weight that in decreasing priority as listed. If a school is well-known for its research, chances are it follows this pattern and teaching is not a priority for the faculty outside of good student evaluations.

Edit: A course at my school lasts for approximately 15 weeks which comes to ~150 hours per semester at 10 hours per week. At 44 hours, dealing with cheating would take 30% of my time spent on the course during the semester.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#164

Post by Daniel_Newby » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:02 AM UTC

kahawe wrote: post #115

kentbuckle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just out of curiosity, where are you from and how is cheating regarded there?

I am Austrian and studied in Austria. Cheating is not really considered special or extra-ordinary in any way here. Pupils in school would try it, also students later on might try to... generally it is the duty of the teacher or professor to keep students from cheating here and 95% of the time they are very successful at it. The remaining 5% are considered fair game by the students. Most tests (as in over 90%) do not…

The American perspective tends to be that you are the system (decentralism), not that it is you versus the system (authoritarianism).

Unfortunately America has also become infested by the idea that punishment creates virtuous people, especially among those with an authoritarian bent. Attempts to outlaw decentralism fail, so they pack all the authoritarianism into those cases where centralized intervention is needed. Hence the rise of zero-tolerance policies for everything. That's how we reach the point where a university opens up a can of ass-whip for a essay that forgot a pair of quotation marks (you can't swing a dead cat in the English department without hitting a sanctimonious liberal).

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#165

Post by beej71 » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:02 AM UTC

Dove wrote: post #123

I am completely aghast. This professor is considering only what path will avoid the most hassle and difficulty for himself. Any duty he might owe honest students, fellow faculty, or even society at large doesn't seem to figure into it. He seems to see no problem at all with effectively selling high grades to cheaters, so long as there's no risk or hassle involved for him . And because he gets to use a term like Nash…

Nonsense. At the end of TFA he lists the ways he is going to effectively combat the problem at the source, as opposed to the previously wasteful and costly way he tried before.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#166

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:06 AM UTC

klbarry wrote: post #26

djcapelis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish this was true, but it actually also hurts all the students who aren't cheating in the course since their classmates are receiving better marks than them while spending less time. Which tragically creates a strong incentive for other students to join in. In some courses this can be an epidemic and you have a significant fraction of the students cheating and getting better marks than the students who are actuall…

There is no evidence that cheating hurts the cheater. Sure, they will learn less. But if they get higher grades from cheating than from trying to learn and not scoring as highly, then this will get them a higher wage in many professions.

Anecdotally (hmm, I'm good with the non-data today), there is a very strong correlation among my friends between not cheating and professional success. The ones who engaged with the material and really tried to learn it are doing very well for themselves, even if they flunked a few courses as a result. It's probably stronger than the GPA-to-success correlation - I know several summa-cum-laude graduates who've since flitted between low-level jobs and continuing education.

Makes sense, really - I've found that your actual skills are the primary limiting factor on your salary, and credentials just make it easier to get the jobs you're already qualified for. While some folks try to game the credentials, the rest of us are working on skills so we can hit the ground running, and actual, tangible accomplishments speak much more loudly than degrees.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#167

Post by lutorm » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:09 AM UTC

Dove wrote: post #123

I am completely aghast. This professor is considering only what path will avoid the most hassle and difficulty for himself. Any duty he might owe honest students, fellow faculty, or even society at large doesn't seem to figure into it. He seems to see no problem at all with effectively selling high grades to cheaters, so long as there's no risk or hassle involved for him . And because he gets to use a term like Nash…

He works for the University. If the employer is not interested in rewarding him (or even penalizing him) for doing something that not only is stressful but that takes tons of time away from his useful work, why should he?

An example of what you are doing in your job for coworkers and society at large while being penalized for it by your employer would be appropriate here.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#168

Post by derrida » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:09 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #158

mikecane wrote: post #133

Welcome to the future where the stupid with "credentials" will be ruling you. While you're busy doing actual work, building something, they're building networks of support in your employer's structure to enable them to rise. So when you explain something to them and get a blank look or questions that make it clear they haven't understood anything, you'll know why. But hey, they have a Business Degree. They win, not y…

Median base salary for a Stern school graduate is only $60K: http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/undergraduate_... I made more than that straight out of college, and now make much more than that. So no, they didn't win. Technical skills pay if you're good at them.

If I went at it full-time, I would have made more than that for my casual job I held on the side at university.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#169

Post by brudgers » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:11 AM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #56

brudgers wrote: post #32

Once the author decides that the academic standard allows copying and pasting, it ceases to become cheating - and he has joined those for whom the term "academic honesty" has lost all meaning. Seriously, when 44 hours over the course of a semester is too much work to uphold a minimum standard, the issue is not confined to students and the author has no moral high ground because they have abandoned the tough part of t…

I think you seriously underestimate the emotional toll it takes on a person to go through 44 hours of "I know you cheated" with dozens of students. Merely calling that "work" - as if it's equal to prepping for lecture - is not fair. I think you also ignore the chilling effect this had on the class itself. It's quite possible that the students who did not cheat experienced a worse class because of the change in atmosp…

If you are molly-coddling the students, then I suppose it could take a lot of time. An email with the Turnitin report would take about five minutes - which is about how long it takes for my spouse who teaches courses online to handle plagiarism.

Setting the expectation for academic honesty in the syllabus and directing students to university policies is more than enough. In any event, it should just be handled privately. There's no reason to jump up and down and hold your breath in front of the class.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#170

Post by lutorm » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 2:11 AM UTC

haberman wrote: post #108

Having to write an essay for which copy/paste from the internet could be construed as a valid answer sounds mind-numbingly boring. Your job is to express the same information as your sources, but with different wording.

What do you mean? Copy/paste from the internet was not a valid answer.

Pretty much any question can be answered by copy/paste from the internet. That doesn't mean it would be a good or acceptable answer.