Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#131

Post by vacri » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 12:47 AM UTC

ohashi wrote: post #121

justin_vanw wrote: post #83

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

It amazes me that you cannot see it from his perspective. He tried to catch cheaters and was punished by the school system for it. He earned less money for trying to enforce a no cheating policy. Would you work twice the amount of time for less pay? Most of us probably wouldn't. It seems like a prudent financial decision for him. The problem seems systemic, he throws his hands in the air and gives up because he canno…

He earned less money for trying to enforce a no cheating policy.

No, his pay was increased by less than in previous years. He didn't actually earn less.

Would you work twice the amount of time for less pay?

He didn't work twice the time. 32 lecture hours is an indicator of the workload - he spends far more on the course than just contact hours.

The problem seems systemic, he throws his hands in the air and gives up because he cannot do anything alone and is punished.

He still got a pay increase. Not as much as he would have liked, but it's not exactly horrible punishment. In one aspect he's just as guilty as his cheaters - he is more concerned for the big bux at the end than in doing his job properly: "If doing things properly means I get paid less, screw that".

EDIT: it's important to note that he also reports on the changed dynamic of the class, not just the dollars. That being said, it's interesting that the dollars come first.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#132

Post by RodgerTheGreat » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 12:50 AM UTC

endgame wrote: post #91

OstiaAntica wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is violating honor, the honor of the institution and everyone who is sacrificing their time and treasure to advance your education. The rules governing cheating are even sometimes called "Honor Codes". Finally, from a Christian perspective, putting your name on work you did not complete is a form of lying and is immoral.

I really hope that the downvotes aren't from people who dislike this poster's Christian perspective. I suspect that the HN majority is atheist, but it's still no excuse.

Disregarding any particular poster's religious affiliations, understanding "Christian" values can shed a great deal of light on the foundations of American culture. I think it's an excellent point at any rate.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#133

Post by mikecane » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 12:53 AM UTC

Welcome to the future where the stupid with "credentials" will be ruling you.

While you're busy doing actual work, building something, they're building networks of support in your employer's structure to enable them to rise.

So when you explain something to them and get a blank look or questions that make it clear they haven't understood anything, you'll know why.

But hey, they have a Business Degree. They win, not you.

Me, bitter? maniacal laughter

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#134

Post by bluehat » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 12:56 AM UTC

A housemate of mine had a very creative solution: as a teacher he said that he would give anybody who cheated a 0 and that appeals could be filed with the Dean's office to prove they did not cheat. Most importantly, nobody would be told if they had been caught cheating, the zero would just show up on their grades.

The system plays on the student's mind: when they submit the first assignment and cheat their motivation to bother to make the minimal effort to dick around with the next one waivers. Most of the cheaters apparently dropped before the midterms. Any whiners with the balls to claim they had not cheated get to make their case to the Dean and voluntarily submit themselves to the school judicial process, but this was generally unneeded as apparently most cheaters dropped the class before midterms. No whiners in your office, and the reviews of you as a teacher are in before you fail them. Seems like it addresses all your problems.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#135

Post by alex_c » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:02 AM UTC

abduhl wrote: post #124

onan_barbarian wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the starchy HN argument style, lacking only a demand that I provide citations. Unfortunately, you're deploying your pomposity in the service of refuting something I didn't actually write. I didn't say that 22/108 was "non-standard for a large US research university's business school". I said it was "big". It is big. This doesn't change if the norm at every other business school is 32/108. The OP also thought it w…

pbh brings up solid points. Stating that something is big will always lead to the question "relative to what?" Your post indicates that you think 28/108 is big relative to what a normal cheating rate would be (as can be seen by your statement "he'd have gone back to 'normal' cheating rates"). How can you establish whether or not something is big relative to a norm when you haven't even established what the norm is?

From the rest of his comment, it seemed reasonable to assume he meant "big" relative to most people's sense of fair play.

I'm having trouble picturing an argument for how a 25% cheating rate would be "small".

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#136

Post by Tsagadai » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:04 AM UTC

juiceandjuice wrote: post #60

Why not have the grade of papers be multiplied by the inverse of the plagiarism score? For example, your first author would get a maximum of a 3% grade on his paper. Of course there are false positives to think of as well, but this would force the authors into more and more original content. The very first assignment I did in college was my own, some code I wrote for a programming class. I turned it in, but my friend…

Because Turnitin is pretty terrible software and there are a lot of false-positives. I remember having to "explain myself" for an essay I wrote where what was copied was direct, cited quotes. It uses word pairs sometimes and will highlight any uncommon phrasing that someone may have used in the past.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#137

Post by sorbus » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:04 AM UTC

kmm wrote: post #104

justin_vanw wrote: post #83

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

I can sympathize with him, as it seems he actually loses money if his student evaluations aren't high enough. The fault would then lie with the institution that doesn't properly asses the teaching prowess of a professor.

He doesn't lose money, he gets a smaller raise.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#138

Post by davorak » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:04 AM UTC

CamperBob wrote: post #120

reso wrote: post #25

Holy crap. They let so many people get away with copy-paste assignments, and they call themselves a postsecondary institution? That's fucking horrific. Where I'm from, a single sentence similar to one of your sources is marks deducted. A paragraph puts you on academic probation. Anything bigger is a bus-ticket home.

Where I'm from, a single sentence similar to one of your sources is marks deducted Sounds like the purpose of the class is to teach people to use a thesaurus.

It is a deterrent. It is often easier to come up with an original sentence then sit around with a thesaurus.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#139

Post by apinstein » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:05 AM UTC

That was one disturbing article, on so many levels.

I cannot even imagine that someone caught doing this wouldn't be instantly suspended from school and possibly expelled. Why on earth are you in college if you want to cheat?

Even worse is a teacher that thinks it's "not worth pursuing".

That said, I do like his ideas of changing the assignments to deter cheating, but that doesn't make it right.

With such creativity to try to "fix" cheating, why wasn't one of his suggestions to have the teacher evaluations exclude scores from students that were caught cheating? This would stop the mis-aligned incentives that caused him to find a way to not report cheaters.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#140

Post by gamble » Mon, Jul 18, 2011, 1:10 AM UTC

carbonica wrote: post #76

reso wrote: post #25

Holy crap. They let so many people get away with copy-paste assignments, and they call themselves a postsecondary institution? That's fucking horrific. Where I'm from, a single sentence similar to one of your sources is marks deducted. A paragraph puts you on academic probation. Anything bigger is a bus-ticket home.

Where I attended college, you get a year's suspension for getting caught copying a sentence without citation. Anything as egregious as this presented would've meant a class full of suspended students.

I'm sure that was the policy, but how often was it enforced? Most universities have draconian policies against cheating that are never enforced, except in the most egregious cases. It's extremely rare for any school to discipline as many people as this; when it does happen, it tends to be national news.