Why I will never pursue cheating again • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#51

Post by ankimal » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:01 PM UTC

qntm wrote: post #34

kahawe wrote: post #15

I don't know what it is with you US Americans and "cheating"... but it seems to be a very touchy subject in your culture, almost like violating someone's honors. I never understood that.

Because the cheater gets out the other end of the degree course with a degree they didn't earn. And then they start competing for the same jobs as me.

Its funny how almost all of this hard work put into cheating, copying, changing, editing etc. leads to one line on your resume, the GPA. A good GPA gets your resume short-listed at the very least but someone who never earned the GPA is extremely easy to catch in an interview, especially for CS majors. A little digging into that project you got an 'A' for and it all comes tumbling down like a house of cards. All it achieves in the end, is a waste of the interviewer or recruiter's time.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#52

Post by viraptor » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:01 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #10

[deleted]

That would be nice, wouldn't it? Unfortunately it's quite easy to find people who barely finished schools but could talk well and landed a job... and then they must really mess up to be fired - they can usually survive doing the absolute minimum.

As long as you work for someone who doesn't actually know what you're doing, it's not that hard to hide the fact you don't know either ;)

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#53

Post by pbh » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:02 PM UTC

onan_barbarian wrote: post #19

While there's much to be said in favor of more creative assignments that aren't minor variants of last year's assignments, the author has drawn the wrong conclusion from what happened. 22 cheats out of 108 is big - and the real proportion may have been even higher, given that it seemed like he caught only either blatant cheats or conscience-stricken/less brazen cheats (the latter category from when he acted people to…

Your claim that the author has drawn the wrong conclusion relies on a major assertion for which you have failed to provide support. Specifically: why do you think a 22/108 cheating rate is non-standard for a large US research university's business school? Are there institutions that check such things in any sort of systematic fashion (e.g., TurnItIn run on a substantial portion of the classwork)?

It seems to me that the incentives that Panos describes, such as poor evaluations, funding/salary, disinterested administrators, and awkward one-on-one confrontations are common to many top institutions.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#54

Post by enneff » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:02 PM UTC

reso wrote: post #25

Holy crap. They let so many people get away with copy-paste assignments, and they call themselves a postsecondary institution? That's fucking horrific. Where I'm from, a single sentence similar to one of your sources is marks deducted. A paragraph puts you on academic probation. Anything bigger is a bus-ticket home.

Agreed. Anyone caught plagiarizing so blatantly should be expelled immediately. It is simply a waste of time to coddle people who should know better.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#55

Post by OstiaAntica » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:03 PM UTC

kahawe wrote: post #15

I don't know what it is with you US Americans and "cheating"... but it seems to be a very touchy subject in your culture, almost like violating someone's honors. I never understood that.

It is violating honor, the honor of the institution and everyone who is sacrificing their time and treasure to advance your education.

The rules governing cheating are even sometimes called "Honor Codes".

Finally, from a Christian perspective, putting your name on work you did not complete is a form of lying and is immoral.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#56

Post by scott_s » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:04 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #32

Once the author decides that the academic standard allows copying and pasting, it ceases to become cheating - and he has joined those for whom the term "academic honesty" has lost all meaning. Seriously, when 44 hours over the course of a semester is too much work to uphold a minimum standard, the issue is not confined to students and the author has no moral high ground because they have abandoned the tough part of t…

I think you seriously underestimate the emotional toll it takes on a person to go through 44 hours of "I know you cheated" with dozens of students. Merely calling that "work" - as if it's equal to prepping for lecture - is not fair.

I think you also ignore the chilling effect this had on the class itself. It's quite possible that the students who did not cheat experienced a worse class because of the change in atmosphere.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#57

Post by ankimal » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:04 PM UTC

walexander wrote: post #39

[deleted] wrote: post #10

[deleted]

That's not necessarily true. Lot's of people can "talk the talk" with a highly embellished resume and land a job. As a result of the cheating, grade inflation becomes worse and a possibly highly able candidate with a 3.4 GPA may completely miss the "GPA filter" on a resume sorting algorithm for a cheater with a 3.6.

Thats why sorting and filtering by GPA is something I never believed in and hope other people stop doing as well. A good GPA is an indication of a capable candidate but the opposite may not be true.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#58

Post by JabavuAdams » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:06 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #32

Once the author decides that the academic standard allows copying and pasting, it ceases to become cheating - and he has joined those for whom the term "academic honesty" has lost all meaning. Seriously, when 44 hours over the course of a semester is too much work to uphold a minimum standard, the issue is not confined to students and the author has no moral high ground because they have abandoned the tough part of t…

Suppose it's a 12 week term: 45 / (12 * 32) = 11% If it's a 14 week term, 45 / (14 * 32) = 10%

So at best, you're looking at 10% unpaid overtime for a job that already requires a lot (maybe up to 100%) unpaid overtime.

FYI, I get paid to teach 17-20 hours a week, but with prep time and marking it ends up taking about 30-40 hours a week.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#59

Post by Xlythe » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:06 PM UTC

phamilton wrote: post #18

I have had many courses in which the answers to the homework are given prior to the homework assignment. The assignment is large enough that copying the answers would take about an hour. Most students feel that if they are going to spend that much time faking it, they might as well do the assignment. Furthermore, biweekly quizzes clearly highlight a lack of understanding. Not doing the homework (or just copying the a…

As a student, I have no complaints about weekly quizzes. I attend university because it gives a structured environment to learn new material and quizzes help keep me focused on what I know and what I only think I know. But extending the time it takes to finish graded homework assignments? It's a waste of my time. I'd rather relax, work at a part-time job, learn a new programming language, or work on some project. Busywork is not why I decided to go to university; the internet provides a free avenue to learn everything I would in university (undergraduate). I pay for the classes, the structure.

(Clarifications. To stay enrolled, I have to maintain high grades, which means homework is an obligation. And yes, I have other motives for attending uni beyond someone telling me what I should learn next. There's the value of a degree outshining being self-taught and how close to 99% of students from my highschool take higher education. University is part of the culture here.)

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#60

Post by juiceandjuice » Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 11:10 PM UTC

Why not have the grade of papers be multiplied by the inverse of the plagiarism score? For example, your first author would get a maximum of a 3% grade on his paper. Of course there are false positives to think of as well, but this would force the authors into more and more original content.

The very first assignment I did in college was my own, some code I wrote for a programming class. I turned it in, but my friend was in the class didn't do his assignment. I figured it was a basic enough problem and I really just turned in the assignment for him. We both got slaps on the wrist, but I never blatantly plagiarized again. I'm not saying I've never reused a sentence from another document on occasion, but usually it was either cited or more unconscious.

The big bummer in college was exactly what he talks about though: the propensity for students in some sort of group to help each other out. The fraternities and athletes were always the worst offenders. For the general eds, everyone in class knew that so and so had a copy of this professors test which he barely changes from year to year, or this fraternity keeps all their papers from previous classes categorized(!) so other members can use them, and that sort of stuff.