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EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

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Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#231

Post by Goety »

makomk wrote: post #199
dang wrote: post #175

The key word here is probably "draft". Bill proposals usually don't amount to much, and for that reason it's generally good practice to wait for a state change (no pun intended). Proposed bills usually go nowhere - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... On HN, there's no harm in waiting - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

I'm pretty sure the significance of a proposed bill is rather different from the EU than in typical democratic countries like say the UK, US or Canada. In most democracies any elected politician can propose a bill, and so they often do purely as a form of showboating to the electorate even if there's no chance it'll get passed. Within the EU, only the small, powerful and very much non-elected European Commission can…

I think this information is something more people should be exposed to.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#232

Post by throwaway894345 »

mbesto wrote: post #228
throwaway894345 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and my point is that the middleclass lifestyle doesn't care whether those industries/supply-chains are fueled by solar or fossil fuel.

You're right except, they will when the price goes up. I think that's the implication here - middle class would have to adjust their lifestyles to good/services that are no longer cheap.

That’s the “who pays for it?” political decision I was alluding to in my original post. Besides, today our economy is optimized around the assumption that pollution is free—as we learn to optimize around a carbon constraint, we will find some efficiencies here and there which will reduce the “cost” of sustainability (“cost” is in quotes because pollution is just cooking the books and it’s weird to characterize “not fraud” as a “cost”). Moreover, even if you’re of the persuasion that wealth redistribution doesn’t really work and the costs will still trickle down to the middle class, that’s still better than runaway warming.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#233

Post by throwaway894345 »

orwin wrote: post #225
throwaway894345 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and my point is that the middleclass lifestyle doesn't care whether those industries/supply-chains are fueled by solar or fossil fuel.

No, they doesn't care, but "middleclass lifestyle" is only available for a fifth of the world, and the remaining four fifth want to partake to. And they slowly do. The total installed renewable electricity capacity was greater than the totla installed fossil capacity for the first time in 2020. It was not replacing old fossil capacity, it was just added to the mix. And capacity != production, so i guess it's even wor…

It’s even worse than that because we not only need to replace existing electrical energy production but we need to electrify sectors that aren’t electrified at all i.e. heavy industry and transportation.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#234

Post by GekkePrutser »

emteycz wrote: post #150
ithkuil wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not even about forbidding them to so it. It's just about paying a little bit of taxes. Is the fuel taxes such a big part of the cost of flying a private jet? Is it just that those people hate paying taxes on principle (and manage to lobby for it)?

In Europe, people flying private are overlapping with those sitting in the parliaments.

True but those people are usually not the ones paying for them anyway

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#235

Post by GekkePrutser »

lamontcg wrote: post #91
avalys wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They’re a convenient distraction from the problem that actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich.

> curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Except it won't. It will cause some large industries to cease to exist though.

But those industries make the stuff that makes our lifestyle possible.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#236

Post by lamontcg »

mthoms wrote: post #229
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. It might mean people just shift to different industries.

Maybe . But even if true, the shift wouldn't be instantaneous. Hence, lots of lower-to-mid timeframe unemployment.

If we could put together a job retraining package and general middle-america bailout package together we could avoid that.

But the Democratic constituency is isolated now geographically and across occupations so that they don't get any votes from something like that, and the Republicans will be happy to allow the pain to happen while preventing any support and milking the resentment.

So yeah, that's probably what will happen because of our dysfunctional government, but by no means is that an economic certainty.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#237

Post by GekkePrutser »

systemvoltage wrote: post #125
gambiting wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me dumping a bunch of tyres into a nearby river would be absolutely negligible compared to global pollution, yes it's still not allowed. A single private jet flight is incredibly polluting yet we allow it to be exempt from pollution tax because......on a grand scale it's nothing? Hmmmmmmm.

All of your points are valid. I guess I struggle with the hypocrisy around that fact that if we really want to curb CO2, there is a bigger fish to fry. For example, millions of people travel for pleasure on airplanes. From one point to the otherside of the globe. No one gives a damn about that, but hey! Look, rich people on fancy airplanes. Even just today, GitHub copilot Twitter thread was full of “Rich people (Micr…

I don't think anyone flies to the other side of the globe for fun anymore since Corona. And I don't think this activity will be back any time soon. Holidays where possible will be a lot more local.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#238

Post by stjohnswarts »

BelenusMordred wrote: post #5

> Private jets will enjoy an exemption through classification of "business aviation" as the use of aircraft by firms for carriage of passengers or goods as an "aid to the conduct of their business", if generally considered not for public hire. > A further exemption is given for "pleasure" flights whereby an aircraft is used for "personal or recreational" purposes not associated with a business or professional use. Su…

I think it's basically "oh those poor rich private jet owners, overtaxed and underappreciated!"

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#239

Post by stjohnswarts »

jaywalk wrote: post #185
Teknoman117 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain that dominating costs of a private jet besides the initial purchase price are the maintenance and employing a flight crew. Fuel price is probably a rounding error in comparison (they get a few miles per gallon). Edit - some quick Googling suggests that jet fuel costs $1.96/gallon in the US at the end of last week. Jets aren't cars, you can't just change the oil every 3 months and have it run for ye…

Fuel costs are a large component of private jet ownership costs. I found a great chart that breaks it all down: https://www.libertyjet.com/jet-ownership-costs.aspx?jetType=...

thanks for this, it's an interesting data point, but I would be willing to bet that the 99.9% who don't own private jets don't care because if you can afford a private jet you can afford the taxes for that private jet and should include them in your purchase decisions.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#240

Post by stjohnswarts »

avalys wrote: post #82
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst .

Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They’re a convenient distraction from the problem that actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich.

I don't care, lead by example. We pay taxes on our fuel to be wage slaves for these muckety muck, the least they can do is not ask for handouts.
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