EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax • Hacker News Board

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#201

Post by t0mas88 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #157

t0mas88 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike what the mass outrage here makes you believe, this is a reasonable exception. Because non-commercial flights (business and hobby) already pay local taxes like VAT and excise on the fuel. The thing is that fuel commercial aviation is exempt from tax due to historic regulations. The EU is proposing to change that by taxing jet fuel for those users. So it makes total sense that they exclude those that already pay…

"So it makes total sense that they exclude those that already pay tax on their fuel from this new tax." How do the numbers compare?

Differs per country, especially excise can vary a lot.

The proposal is for a minimum tax on jet fuel for commercial flights to still start at zero and then increase the minimum tax every year. So I'm expecting it to be below VAT + excise.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#202

Post by reedjosh » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:28 PM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #191

reedjosh wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choice. I'm not forced into a service provided by anyone. Government is monopoly of violence. For example, mono crop wheat is terrible, but the government uses its monopoly of force to coerce me into subsidies for foods I refuse to eat. These subsidies are the reason it's healthiest to stick to the perimeter of the store. Without them, cheap cereal junk foods would at least not be so cheap. This encouragement of low…

The government is not a monopoly of violence. Plenty of non-governmental organisations are violent. The existence of private security firms is an obvious example of this. In addition to this, if you support a minimal government that enforces private property rights, then this doesn't eliminate government violence: it allows the wealthy to access it by proxy.

> Plenty of non-governmental organisations are violent. The existence of private security firms is an obvious example of this.

These organizations are either government sanctioned or considered criminal.

The libertarian viewpoint on this is that all initiation of force is criminal.

> if you support a minimal government that enforces private property rights

I don't support that. I think individuals should take the protection of themselves and their property seriously. And no, I don't just mean having a gun, but instead seeking a place that honors private property and or paying for protection services as needed. Everything the government provides, a private entity can as well.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#203

Post by _rpd » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #180

_rpd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual reason for the exemption is that they cannot impose the tax on non-EU operators, giving the non-EU operators a competitive advantage.

The UK does (including back in the good old days when we were still in the EU).

This doesn't appear to be the case (as of Oct 2019) ...

> members of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), including the United Kingdom, are prevented from taxing international aviation fuel, or any proxies for fuel, under the Chicago Convention.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00...

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#204

Post by nicoburns » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

reedjosh wrote: post #202

nicoburns wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is not a monopoly of violence. Plenty of non-governmental organisations are violent. The existence of private security firms is an obvious example of this. In addition to this, if you support a minimal government that enforces private property rights, then this doesn't eliminate government violence: it allows the wealthy to access it by proxy.

> Plenty of non-governmental organisations are violent. The existence of private security firms is an obvious example of this. These organizations are either government sanctioned or considered criminal. The libertarian viewpoint on this is that all initiation of force is criminal. > if you support a minimal government that enforces private property rights I don't support that. I think individuals should take the pro…

> The libertarian viewpoint on this is that all initiation of force is criminal.

What count as initiation of force? If I walk into your house and take your things, am I initiating use of force? If I want to live somewhere where that is not the norm, how am I supposed to find that place? It seems very idealistic to me that such a place could exist without it being enforced somehow.

> instead seeking a place that honors private property and or paying for protection services as needed. Everything the government provides, a private entity can as well.

If that private entity makes that provision through the use of force, do they not then constitute a government of sorts? If they do not use force, then how do they manage to make that provision at all?

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#205

Post by rubyist5eva » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:44 PM UTC

js8 wrote: post #36

rubyist5eva wrote: post #26

Just goes to show fighting climate change is nothing but a power grab that makes life more miserable for regular people and making them more dependent on the rich and government.

I downvoted you. Fighting climate change is very important, and not just a power grab. People need to rise up and protest against things like these, so that power grab wouldn't happen. Just to clarify, perhaps my point is not obvious. We want to have carbon taxes because they address the problem of economic externality in combusting fossil fuels. Different example of a similar tax, that aims to solve a similar proble…

Except I don't own a vehicle. I use public transit, walk, ride a bike, carpool - do all of the things that the government "wants me to do" but I don't get a rebate or any kind of exemption. I pay the same amount of road tax as my father who drives a Ford F150 an hour to an from work everyday, and my step-mother that drives an SUV even though she has zero need for one. I probably actually pay _relatively_ more because they "consume" more of the road at the same cost (ie. do more damage to it by engaging in activities which cause more wear and tear on the road).

People who consume more, should pay more. Period.

It's still a power/cash grab at my expense.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#206

Post by tonyedgecombe » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

_rpd wrote: post #203

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK does (including back in the good old days when we were still in the EU).

This doesn't appear to be the case (as of Oct 2019) ... > members of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), including the United Kingdom, are prevented from taxing international aviation fuel, or any proxies for fuel, under the Chicago Convention. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00...

It's not on the fuel, rather the flights:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-and-allowances-for-air-pas...

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#207

Post by foobiekr » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:55 PM UTC

avalys wrote: post #82

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst .

Private jets are completely irrelevant to global warming because there are not enough of them. They’re a convenient distraction from the problem that actually curbing global warming will require huge changes in the lifestyle of the global middle class. Not just the super-rich.

Fairness and the perception of fairness is not a distraction. If anything, behavior now, where the most privileged who can pay insignificantly more are given a pass, is terribly damaging.

It portends a future where only the lower classes shoulder the burden of reductions in quality of life to manage climate change.

Which is, of course, what's going to happen.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#208

Post by InitialLastName » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #192

peytn wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People like when things are fair. To get those big wins you’re gonna have to either make things look fair or use force (i.e. guns). You won’t be able to change human society into a kind of minmaxing superintelligence.

Agreed, I want fairness as well. I’m not opposed to the taxes on private jets. I’m just opposed to the overwhelming “fuck the rich” mob tone. Maybe I’m looking into this too much, but to me it’s unavoidable observation.

I think the mob has started to notice every time a new burden is imposed on them with a notch carved out for the ultra-wealthy.

Especially when that wealth was achieved on the back of the labor, the consumption, and (increasingly) the attention spans of the mob.

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#209

Post by Teknoman117 » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #185

Teknoman117 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fairly certain that dominating costs of a private jet besides the initial purchase price are the maintenance and employing a flight crew. Fuel price is probably a rounding error in comparison (they get a few miles per gallon). Edit - some quick Googling suggests that jet fuel costs $1.96/gallon in the US at the end of last week. Jets aren't cars, you can't just change the oil every 3 months and have it run for ye…

Fuel costs are a large component of private jet ownership costs. I found a great chart that breaks it all down: https://www.libertyjet.com/jet-ownership-costs.aspx?jetType=...

Interesting.

So, not a rounding error, but it's still only 20% of the cost. The fuel estimate I had in my comment was for a smaller jet though (7 or 8 passenger).

Re: EU draft exempts private jets, cargo from jet fuel tax

#210

Post by derriz » Thu, Jul 08, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #119

derriz wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you get the idea that renewables are expensive energy? Utility scale onshore wind and solar PV are the cheapest form of generation[1] by a long shot. And because of this, 90% of the global electricity generation capacity added in 2020 was renewable. There wasn't a single coal burning power plant built in the US last year, despite political support for coal - it's just too uneconomic. This isn't coercion, tax…

Lazard's analysis is bad at best, but that is a separate discussion. The main issue is that renewables have huge upfront capital costs combined with 0 storage &transportation capabilities (cannot put your wind energy in a tank). Of course these are not issues for the West, but I don't know how you can go to an isolated Indian village and tell them that they need to spit 20k per household to install solar panels. Comb…

What do you mean the analysis is "bad"? It's widely referenced and they explain their methodology in detail and their data sources. If there's an aspect of the methodology you think is bad, I'd be interested in hearing it. Their results are pretty much in line with other independent studies of the same thing.

I don't understand why you'd compare the capital cost of utility scale electricity generation against that for a wood burning domestic stove or a small motorcycle. Isolated Indian villages are not expected to fund utility scale electricity generation? I mean you could try to argue that candles are better than solar-powered flash-lights, I guess? But I don't see the relevance.

The fact is that for utility scale electricity generation, the combination of solar PV or onshore wind with idling peaker natural gas capacity blows all the competition out of the water in terms of cost. The only thermal generation currently viable in the modern world is combined-cycle gas and even then it's unlikely to maintain touching distance in a world where wind turbines continue to fall in price by 10% a year while PV panels are falling at an even faster rate.

You just have to look at what's actually happening globally - both developed and developing world. Like I said 90% of worldwide newly installed grid scale generation capacity added in 2020 was renewable. The simplest explanation for this is the one which agrees with all the analysis from various sources - it's happening because it's far cheaper.