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What really happened to Jack Ma?

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Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#111

Post by koonsolo »

drumhead wrote: post #76
Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

So Medieval. The Crown accuses you of corruption/sedition/treachery, prosecutes you then confiscates your property as a fine. A bit like Henry 7th in England during his reign. Also a bit like Putin against any oligarchs who dared to oppose him. But then I suppose its a standard pattern of behaviour to give their actions the sheen of lawfulness.

I would say it's plain communism: nothing is yours, the state owns everything (including your life).

But I guess the difference between crown and communism is best explained in Animal Farm.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#112

Post by danielrpa »

ca01an wrote: post #38
genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China

It's incredible how fast people on HN jump to false equivalencies when comparing US and China. The mere fact you can criticize the government in this forum without the fear of being brought in for questioning should give you some hints on how both systems compare.

Criticize the US as much as you want (after all, you can do it), and the US government DOES deserve a good deal of criticism, but saying that the countries are somehow equivalent in the consequences for anti-state speech is laughable.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#113

Post by bellyfullofbac »

ipausanius wrote: post #95

Then in May, it was reported that Jack Ma had actually visited Alibaba headquarters for an employee social event. I took this at face value and asked my wife (Chinese) what her opinions were on Ma having not been seen in public for so long. Within a couple of minutes she brought up some Chinese social media posts: video: https://open.163.com/newview/movie/free?pid=TG921CJDP&mid=TG... that do indeed show Ma giving a s…

I do think the author's argument "There are one billion smartphones in China today" pretty weak. How many smartphone users publish their photos on open social media? Most people probably took pictures and shared them on WeChat with their friends and relatives.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#114

Post by pydry »

roenxi wrote: post #107
pydry wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>democracy has its good points That when billionaires become powerful enough to exert unchecked power we lavish praise instead of imprisoning them?

Would you rather billionaires exerting "unchecked power" or party officials exerting actual, unchecked, power? Because the unchecked power of the typical billionaire couldn't achieve what is being done to Jack Ma.

I'm indifferent. Honestly I think I'd rather see elites fighting among themselves than select a particular brand of unchecked unaccountable power to be lorded over me.

Would you prefer to live under Kim Jong Il or Kim Jong Un?

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#115

Post by redis_mlc »

the_third_wave wrote: post #71
smcl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Removed this. I was agreeing with parent (CCP != communist), but don’t wanna encourage more replies like the one I got

Assuming that failed communist states "are not communist" is is a dangerous fallacy which keeps alive the idea that "Communism works but has never been tried in real life". The CCP is a communist party in one of the end stages of the ideology just like the Soviet communist party was a communist party in one of its end stages, just like all the other failed communist states were led by communist parties in their end s…

[dead]

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#116

Post by rorykoehler »

Aunche wrote: post #93
rorykoehler wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually sticking your head in the sand is condoning behaviour. I understand your perspective however given YC's conflict of interest due to investing in Chinese companies I think it would be prudent to stick YC's flag in the ground. Inaction and fence-sitting is radically political too.

Wishing for Xi Jinping to visit the Hague does as little to hinder China as much as sticking your head in the sand.

Better than welcoming them in through the front door like we have been doing until now.

It’s come to the point where we need to have a constant and sustain vocalisation against the CCP and the dystopian future they are building. They represent an existential threat to anything that isn’t the CCP and they’ve been very successful in getting their hooks into western society and the world at large. You see it on Reddit all the time. Moderators remove comments because it doesn’t follow some sort of vague guideline, about facts for example, when really it is removed because it is critical of the CCP. The cleverness of this is that it’s hard to prove. While I don’t believe there is direct censorship here on hackernews the above comment and reasoning by dang can be interpreted in the same way. None of the reasons dang gave were present in the comment that was replied to. CCP censorship is here now in western society directly and indirectly through self censorship to protect investments. Our short termism makes us very vulnerable to their bs.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#117

Post by the_third_wave »

bzzzt wrote: post #104
the_third_wave wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that failed communist states "are not communist" is is a dangerous fallacy which keeps alive the idea that "Communism works but has never been tried in real life". The CCP is a communist party in one of the end stages of the ideology just like the Soviet communist party was a communist party in one of its end stages, just like all the other failed communist states were led by communist parties in their end s…

I'm wondering what the end state of our democratic capitalistic states will be...

That will very much depend on how the societies handle the loss of employment opportunities caused by increased automation. People need to have a purpose in life, a goal to work towards to. Just giving them a basic income and entertainment will not work, in such a 'Utopia' the populace will eventually break the machines just so that something interesting happens. Maybe a new frontier will be opened, e.g. artificial islands in the oceans which can be built and populated or a space colony, something to give those who seek a challenge a way to fulfil their wanderlust. Maybe war will intervene and make the question moot by giving those in search of purpose or adventure a ready-made answer. A quick perusal of history shows that new frontiers and wars seem to be the most common providers of purpose to those in search for it.

In other words we better hope that someone like Musk will make good on the promise of a new frontier - we need one to have something to aim at other than at our neighbour.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#118

Post by squiggleblaz »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #31
kangaroozach wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fault the press for letting this slide. Most people just read headlines and figured he was alright and their theories were proven false. The press should have for skepticism because they act as the middle layer between the public and the reality of what is going on. They have a responsibility to get us the relevant facts. These days seems like the press has sold out and seems like they are in someone’s pocket…

> They have a responsibility to get us the relevant facts. >These days seems like the press has sold out and seems like they are in someone’s pocket… We do not want to compensate journalists, and there seems to be quite some risk in doing investigative journalism in China, so I would not expect someone to donate their life as the risk reward ratio is out of whack.

> We do not want to compensate journalists,

We barely have the choice to compensate journalists. For them to do their jobs effectively, they need to group together. But the people who control the groupings of journalists take active steps to cultivate a feeling of distrust and hostility between the would-be compensators and the controllers of the groups. Are there any news websites that make you feel better and more informed after you've visited them? It always seems like you should feel grateful they haven't started tracking you, got you an expensive and hard to cancel subscription and like your life will be desperately uncertain if you decide to go make a cup of coffee.

It's almost impossible to spend nothing but a couple of dollars and some attention in exchange for quality journalism like it was just a few years ago.

There is one party who controls the interaction between journalists and the public, and prior to casting aspersions on the general public you need to consider their actions.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#119

Post by native_samples »

arvigeus wrote: post #80
Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

I don't think CCP would throw away billions of worth just because they dislike the man. Unlike the west, China is allowed to meddle into the affairs of any company, so it's not hard to imagine they are just profiting from him, like a shadow takeover. This explains why he is shown around from time to time: to calm down the investors. At some point this circus would be over, and the companies will collapse by themselve…

The market cap chart in the article suggests otherwise; since this started hundreds of billions have been wiped off the value of his business empire and its still declining. The trigger was simply a speech where he didn't even criticize the government directly, just the financial infrastructure (which is itself very interesting - why is the CCP so sensitive to criticism of its banks?).

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#120

Post by permo-w »

koonsolo wrote: post #111
drumhead wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Medieval. The Crown accuses you of corruption/sedition/treachery, prosecutes you then confiscates your property as a fine. A bit like Henry 7th in England during his reign. Also a bit like Putin against any oligarchs who dared to oppose him. But then I suppose its a standard pattern of behaviour to give their actions the sheen of lawfulness.

I would say it's plain communism: nothing is yours, the state owns everything (including your life). But I guess the difference between crown and communism is best explained in Animal Farm.

It’s just authoritarianism
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