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What really happened to Jack Ma?

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Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#71

Post by the_third_wave »

smcl wrote: post #24
mr_toad wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does communism have to do with the Chinese Communist Party?

Edit: Removed this. I was agreeing with parent (CCP != communist), but don’t wanna encourage more replies like the one I got

Assuming that failed communist states "are not communist" is is a dangerous fallacy which keeps alive the idea that "Communism works but has never been tried in real life". The CCP is a communist party in one of the end stages of the ideology just like the Soviet communist party was a communist party in one of its end stages, just like all the other failed communist states were led by communist parties in their end stages. The problem lies with the ideology, not with the implementation thereof.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#72

Post by busterarm »

scandox wrote: post #23

The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere.

If you think this side of the worlds' Marxists don't get fully erect when reading about what happened to Jack Ma, then you don't realize how bad it really is.

Just look at my sibling comments here...

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#73

Post by rwmj »

pydry wrote: post #56
kangaroozach wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fault the press for letting this slide. Most people just read headlines and figured he was alright and their theories were proven false. The press should have for skepticism because they act as the middle layer between the public and the reality of what is going on. They have a responsibility to get us the relevant facts. These days seems like the press has sold out and seems like they are in someone’s pocket…

Nobody really does investigative journalism any more. It's expensive and has an uncertain payoff. In the face of declining ad revenue media organizations are much more keen on predictable revenue streams.

Private Eye does (in the UK, not China), but they have a very popular best-selling paper magazine.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#74

Post by Jochim »

genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

It's kind of intriguing to me because, as a member of a western society, I think we place largely the same expectations on people to conform, the only difference is in how the enforcement is applied.

In many countries, cities, and neighbourhoods in "the west" if you aren't white you experience exactly the kind of insecurity you describe elsewhere. There are plenty of incidents where non-white residents are arrested while working on their own car, or entering their own home because a neighbour saw them and decided they did not or could not belong. There was a rather notable protest movement just last year that had it's roots in a group of people not being allowed to freely exist in the same way as the rest of society.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#75

Post by tjpnz »

wsc981 wrote: post #35
genmud wrote: post #5

One thing that you learn quickly when traveling the world is how easily one can go from having a good time with your friends, to being in a shitty prison without food, running water or a phone to let your family know if you are dead or alive. I have friends travel to interesting places during times of (relative) stability. To paraphrase one of the guys that I know: "When you travel in some of these places, you exist…

Somewhat related, this is an interesting story of the escape of a Western guy with his Chinese wife and child from China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7CPqROtanA He did have to escape on short notice after he shared or said something on his YouTube channel that offended the Chinese government (IIRC).

Similar thing happened with ADVChina. He had spent years trying to portray the positive aspects of Chinese society but was increasingly targeted by police. He ended up leaving after the harassment became too much.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#76

Post by drumhead »

Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

So Medieval. The Crown accuses you of corruption/sedition/treachery, prosecutes you then confiscates your property as a fine. A bit like Henry 7th in England during his reign. Also a bit like Putin against any oligarchs who dared to oppose him. But then I suppose its a standard pattern of behaviour to give their actions the sheen of lawfulness.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#77

Post by np_tedious »

regularfry wrote: post #61
setr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t they just end up selling the stock to pay the loans, and pay taxes then? It seems more reasonable that they’re betting on the stock values increasing more than the loan interest rate

The difference is "end up". They can (if appropriate, and if they can't cover it elsewhere) sell small amounts to cover the interest on the loan, rather than the large amount of the principal. At the end of the loan term the usual thing would be to roll it into another loan. The lender wants that stream of interest payments. The only time they care about the full amount is if they want (or need) to call in the loan,…

If you can keep this up until you die, your heirs may benefit from what's called "step up in basis" on the shares. Thus a lot of capital gains tax is avoided.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#78

Post by lucian1900 »

anm89 wrote: post #67
lucian1900 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascism is a tool of the rich to use those fallen from (some amount of) grace against organised labour that might otherwise mount a successful revolution. There’s a reason the first targets have always been communists and labour organisers, not industry owners. Look at what fascists do, not at what they say.

I have no evidence either way of what this person does and they verbally advocate for violence against people they don't like to achieve political ends. So I'm going to stick with them seeming pretty facistic.

Violence isn’t inherently fascist.

Capitalism uses violence against the working class to maintain profits for the owning class.

Revolutions of the working class are violent, yet they end the former violence and exploitation.

Fascism is violence to protect the owning class from a revolution by the working class.

Suppression of capitalists after a working class revolution is also violence to prevent them from regaining power to yet again use violence to exploit the working class.

Violence is just one way to exert power.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#79

Post by Jochim »

MattGaiser wrote: post #58
CJefferson wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who spent years in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (or are still there, after 20 years, without being charged) might disagree with you on that.

> In the USA What the US does to non-citizens outside the USA is a messy area. Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear.

On an individual basis the rules are often vague and selectively enforced.

As a collective institution there was the whole Edward Snowden thing where he pointed out that the NSA had definitely not been following those rules and no one who knew what they were doing seemed particularly keen on stopping them.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#80

Post by arvigeus »

Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

I don't think CCP would throw away billions of worth just because they dislike the man. Unlike the west, China is allowed to meddle into the affairs of any company, so it's not hard to imagine they are just profiting from him, like a shadow takeover. This explains why he is shown around from time to time: to calm down the investors. At some point this circus would be over, and the companies will collapse by themselves.
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