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What really happened to Jack Ma?

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Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#61

Post by regularfry »

setr wrote: post #42
pavlov wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK it’s usual practice for billionaire founders to fund their lifestyles with loans taken against their stock. If they sold stock, they’d incur large taxes. A loan avoids that.

Wouldn’t they just end up selling the stock to pay the loans, and pay taxes then? It seems more reasonable that they’re betting on the stock values increasing more than the loan interest rate

The difference is "end up". They can (if appropriate, and if they can't cover it elsewhere) sell small amounts to cover the interest on the loan, rather than the large amount of the principal. At the end of the loan term the usual thing would be to roll it into another loan. The lender wants that stream of interest payments. The only time they care about the full amount is if they want (or need) to call in the loan, which, in the ideal situation from their perspective, never happens.

So the borrower should never need to sell enough of the stock to seriously affect the price, and the tax is only payable on a small number, not a big one.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#62

Post by orbifold »

MattGaiser wrote: post #39
ca01an wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China

But not because some government official suddenly decided they should. In the USA, the rules are known well in advance. There might be questionable rules, but POTUS cannot decree a rule into existence and put a bag over your head an hour later.

If you piss off the US enough you will become suicidal in a Spanish prison.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#63

Post by lucian1900 »

anm89 wrote: post #57
hulitu wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Yes, like protecting rich criminals. > Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere. Some people never have enough. It is good that sometimes they are shown that limits exist.

Nice endorsement of kidnapping and violence against people who have "too much". Fits every criteria of fascism and yet I bet you don't wear that label outwardly.

Fascism is a tool of the rich to use those fallen from (some amount of) grace against organised labour that might otherwise mount a successful revolution. There’s a reason the first targets have always been communists and labour organisers, not industry owners.

Look at what fascists do, not at what they say.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#64

Post by skrebbel »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #32
cik wrote: post #27

Colour me paranoid.. but I think I'm a realist. From China's point of view, the creation (and concentration) of (large amounts) of wealth in the hands of individuals, leads to the concentration of power. That power in turn, becomes a threat to the current approach of the CCP, and the messages being shared with society. In 2019, China began working with PWC in an effort to repatriate, or at least dual-list IPOs, in ei…

This is exactly right. Same reason they shut down LGBTQ chat rooms. It will be very interesting to watch the trajectory of China vs the western model.

Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma?

EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban and Xi think that that this helps them stay in power? How? Why?

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#65

Post by pydry »

scandox wrote: post #23

The very excellent effect of Ma's downfall is that it will remind wealthy people in the West that democracy has its good points. Much easier to sympathize with the expropriation of a Billionaire than some schlub from the middle of nowhere.

>democracy has its good points

That when billionaires become powerful enough to exert unchecked power we lavish praise instead of imprisoning them?

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#66

Post by taneq »

cik wrote: post #27

Colour me paranoid.. but I think I'm a realist. From China's point of view, the creation (and concentration) of (large amounts) of wealth in the hands of individuals, leads to the concentration of power. That power in turn, becomes a threat to the current approach of the CCP, and the messages being shared with society. In 2019, China began working with PWC in an effort to repatriate, or at least dual-list IPOs, in ei…

Doesn't need to be a threat, even. That concentration of wealth and power is a nice juicy morsel for the state to acquire.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#67

Post by anm89 »

lucian1900 wrote: post #63
anm89 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice endorsement of kidnapping and violence against people who have "too much". Fits every criteria of fascism and yet I bet you don't wear that label outwardly.

Fascism is a tool of the rich to use those fallen from (some amount of) grace against organised labour that might otherwise mount a successful revolution. There’s a reason the first targets have always been communists and labour organisers, not industry owners. Look at what fascists do, not at what they say.

I have no evidence either way of what this person does and they verbally advocate for violence against people they don't like to achieve political ends.

So I'm going to stick with them seeming pretty facistic.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#68

Post by Traster »

setr wrote: post #42
pavlov wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK it’s usual practice for billionaire founders to fund their lifestyles with loans taken against their stock. If they sold stock, they’d incur large taxes. A loan avoids that.

Wouldn’t they just end up selling the stock to pay the loans, and pay taxes then? It seems more reasonable that they’re betting on the stock values increasing more than the loan interest rate

Who says they ever have to pay the loan? Most banks are tripping over themselves to manage the banking needs of billionaires, an interest free loan, especially in this environment would be completely unsurprsing and they could roll that loan over forever.

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#69

Post by ailun »

skrebbel wrote: post #64
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly right. Same reason they shut down LGBTQ chat rooms. It will be very interesting to watch the trajectory of China vs the western model.

Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban…

LGBTQ as a movement is seen as a western influence. It’s funny that I saw your comment, earlier today I read a machine-translated version of this article(1) that was shared by a Wechat contact. I would say this attitude is fairly common among people 40+ in China.

Warning if you don’t want to get angry: it is full of repulsive views.

(1) https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw

Re: What really happened to Jack Ma?

#70

Post by fmajid »

Bojui wrote: post #25
Traster wrote: post #18

I think this, in combination with the author's previous article about the moves the CCP have made on Ma's business make it pretty clear what is happening. Ma is being held whilst his businesses are dismantled. Ant is being turned into a traditional bank, Alibaba is being attacked from several directions, Ma's university (a clear source of soft power) is being shut down. When you then ask where Ma is I would say it's…

What happens if Xi kicks the can tomorrow? How smooth is the transition going to be? China is so massive I cant understand how they dont have multiple power centers bumping into each other all the time.

Xi wants no waves for the CCP 100th Anniversary celebrations and a few other key milestones this year. That’s why even the wolf warriors are being muzzled at the moment.
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