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Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

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Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this make sense? If they don't hold the underlying security, where does the value come from? Come on, this is cryptocurrency. The whole point is to con people into thinking a fake thing is real because blockchain and cash in; with the off chance that if enough people believe, then their belief will make the fake thing real.

You should read up on the last decade in Venezuela, which used to be the richest country in Latin America, and having wealthy professionals see their savings evaporate due to 1,000,000% inflation because of the actions of a government they democratically elected. Belief is the only thing holding together a lot of the things that we rely on to keep society functioning the way it does. I'm guessing (though not assuming…

> Belief is the only thing holding together a lot of the things that we rely on to keep society functioning the way it does.

Which is why alot of people feel threatened by the ever shifting sands in the global financial landscape

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#232
Sounds like an online [bucket shop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market) ). And seems like it's a much worse proposition than the actual stock-market.

With real stocks, shareholders buy/sell in a manner that might be compared to gambling for some. And if those were the only cash-flows, then the stock-market would be a zero-sum game. But they're not; the stocks entitle holders to other cash-flows, e.g. dividends or asset-distribution to shareholders -- so the stock-market isn't zero-sum.

By contrast, such gambling platforms would seem to have cash-inflows only from other gamblers. And additional cash-outflows to cover incentives to miners, etc., to keep the block-chain operating. So while the real stock-market might be better-than-zero-sum, seems like these would be worse-than-zero-sum.

So.. why? I mean, even if someone just wants to gamble, why not gamble in a net-positive system rather than a net-negative system?

(Also this sounds like it might be illegal in the US and perhaps elsewhere.)

---

To sketch a simple example:

Alice starts a company with $1,000 of her own money, creating 100 shares (valued at about $10/share). She sells some of her shares to others for ~$10/share.. let's say she sells half, so she gets back $500 while retaining a 50% stake in the $1,000 pot.

As CEO, Alice invests all $1,000 in US bonds, getting some interest. After 10 years of operation, Alice liquidates the company, which now has $1,000+(10 years of interest).

Now everyone who bought a share from Alice at the start (for ~$10) would get about ~$10+(10 years of interest), much like if they had invested $10 in bonds themself.

And Alice herself gets back $500+interest (in addition to the $500 she got from selling shares earlier).

Now what about people who gambled on Alice's company? This is, now that Alice's company has dissolved and the real shareholders got their cash+interest, what do the people with "synthetic shares" get?

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#233
post #232

Sounds like an online [bucket shop]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market) ). And seems like it's a much worse proposition than the actual stock-market. With real stocks, shareholders buy/sell in a manner that might be compared to gambling for some. And if those were the only cash-flows, then the stock-market would be a zero-sum game. But they're not; the stocks entitle holders to other cash-flows,…

Oh and how about contracts for difference, equity swaps, futures on stocks, etc?

Of course when traditional players do it's totally fine, but the moment the same thing is done on crypto rails, that's when we raise our value signalling pitch forks.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#234
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take away all the buzzwords you’ll notice that the core utility of uniswap is the “decentralization” of services which are offered by the traditional finance system. Yes it’s far easier for retail investors to play the role of the market maker but the financial services themselves are the same. Also realize that if defi becomes mainstream retail will still be pushed out by institutions as yields approach zero.…

> If you take away all the buzzwords you’ll notice that the core utility of uniswap is the “decentralization” of services which are offered by the traditional finance system. If I contact my bank, will they allow me to become a liquidity provider for USD-EUR pair and give me a cut of USD-EUR exchanges that they make? If not, which traditional financial institution do I have to contact for this? Actually, I would be o…

Yes you can provide liquidity for eur-usd if you jump through all the hoops.

A quick google search will show you that lots of savings accounts have positive yields. Rates have been low cause of fed action but banks have provided positive returns in savings accounts since like forever ago.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#235
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not friction?

It's a law that requires financial institutions to "Know Their Customer" in order to operate legally. It's a reasonable law. Following existing regulations will be needed for crypto to have a chance at being mainstream

Reasonable doesn't mean it doesn't add friction btw

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#236
post #232

Sounds like an online [bucket shop]( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market) ). And seems like it's a much worse proposition than the actual stock-market. With real stocks, shareholders buy/sell in a manner that might be compared to gambling for some. And if those were the only cash-flows, then the stock-market would be a zero-sum game. But they're not; the stocks entitle holders to other cash-flows,…

Oh and how about contracts for difference, equity swaps, futures on stocks, etc? Of course when traditional players do it's totally fine, but the moment the same thing is done on crypto rails, that's when we raise our value signalling pitch forks.

This has nothing to do with what I was saying about negative cashflows leading to a negative-sum game.

Are you trying to make the point that this is meant to appeal to a "fight-the-power"-type crowd who'd be willing to suffer losses for thematic reasons?

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#237
post #90

Fake seems like a strange choice of words here. These things arent attempting to deceive anyone into believing they are the real thing. They clearly label themselves as derivatives. We don't call corn futures fake corn, we don't call derivatives of other types fake those things and we shouldn't call these fake stocks. I'm really not defending or not defending whatever these platforms are. I wouldn't be surprised if t…

Unregulated would be a better description. This is a perfect example of the kind of financial asset that should be heavily regulated. How do these assets track the price and what guarantees they will always do so? If the answer is trust us (like stablecoins, nfts, etc), people buying them are marks, not customers.

You can read Maker DAO whitepaper to see how a stablecoin can be created without trust.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this make sense? If they don't hold the underlying security, where does the value come from? Come on, this is cryptocurrency. The whole point is to con people into thinking a fake thing is real because blockchain and cash in; with the off chance that if enough people believe, then their belief will make the fake thing real.

You should read up on the last decade in Venezuela, which used to be the richest country in Latin America, and having wealthy professionals see their savings evaporate due to 1,000,000% inflation because of the actions of a government they democratically elected. Belief is the only thing holding together a lot of the things that we rely on to keep society functioning the way it does. I'm guessing (though not assuming…

The people of Venezuela elected the US government? That's news to me!

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#239
post #181
post #161

> But to stop mirrored stocks and other synthetic assets from trading, you would have to shut down the underlying open-source software code that makes up the blockchain and is used by a global user base that includes many anonymous players, he added. Don't these synthetic assets need an oracle to inject the price of the real assets into the blockchain? To stop these synthetic assets from working, couldn't they just g…

That is, indeed, the week spot in these constructs. Commonly, oracles are composed of an aggregate of multiple independent providers. So roughly a majority of them have to collude to manipulate the price and you would have to take multiple oracle providers down to stop the price updates. Any token derivative that relies on one or a few providers are very risky. ChainLink (the mainstream choice today) doesn't seem to…

I forgot to add, re Chainlink: Chainlink can, as a single party, remove and add providers to the oracle feeds. So in this case, they are the one SPoF here. Maybe that will change with the introduction of some governance system at some point as things mature and stabilize, but presently despite the smoke and mirrors they can be coerced or compelled to shut down individual price-feeds.

In principle this could be "unstoppable", but as of right now it is not.

Re: Fake Tesla, Apple stocks have started trading on blockchains

#240
post #39
post #21

I think this is illegal. This is effectively a CFD, which are absolutely illegal in the US regulated or not. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_for_difference

Your reference says they are illegal only on regulated markets in the US.

> they are illegal only on regulated markets

How on earth would your take-away from that be that be "oh, in that case it's perfectly legal on all the _unregulated_ markets" ?

That not how regulation works, at all.

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