Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down • Hacker News Board

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#101

Post by drzaiusapelord » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #56

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fas…

>I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar.

I mean, that's just you and your ethics as a person. Capitalism demands relentless and permanent profit, so capitalist culture is middle-managers doing exactly the opposite of you. Worse, they're in a rat-race against other middle-managers to see who can save the most money. So the system is designed to make sure workers don't get decent wages, feel safe, or happy. The system can't be for relentless profit and kindess to employees, unless pressure from the outside via regulations or collective bargaining. I think the idea that good hearted people at these companies should just generous is a little naive. The good hearted most likely don't get into positions of power and even if they did, they're still playing the same oppressive game everyone else is for their own paychecks. Its greed and short-sightedness, and oppression all the way down.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#102

Post by PragmaticPulp » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

axaxs wrote: post #56

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fas…

> I don't get Amazon's play here.

According to the article, so far it’s only two delivery companies in one city, not an actual large trend across the country.

When negotiating with providers and vendors at scale, it’s common for some of them to give “no bid” responses or withdraw from negotiations if they don’t think the contract will be worth their time. The only way to find true market rate is to negotiate until some vendors or providers decline or withdraw, which is more or less what’s happening here.

If Amazon was unable to find other market rate delivery companies or unable to deliver the packages themselves, they’d pay more. The article has a heavy anti-Amazon angle, but this is just what market rate price discovery looks like at scale. Amazon deliveries haven’t ground to a halt in the city, so presumably they have a cheaper solution than using these two companies that would only work for higher rates.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#103

Post by leothecool » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #83

at-fates-hands wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I called Amazon and they of course speak of them like they are some completely separate affiliate that has nothing to do with them. This by design: Amazon has repeatedly said in court that it is not responsible for the actions of its contractors, citing agreements that require them, as one puts it, to “defend, indemnify and hold harmless Amazon.” Just last week, an operations manager for Amazon testified in Chicag…

If you hire a contractor to perform work on your house, and during their contract they happen to burn down one neighbor's house and destroy the wall of a separate neighbor's house - you will not be liable for their actions. If you think that Amazon should be liable for the actions of their contracted drivers, you would likewise be liable for burning down and destroying your neighbor's houses.

Not really, because I also think Amazon is illegally classifying these employees as contractors.

I don't tell the contractor working on my house what tools to use, and the contractor working on my house has other customers besides me.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#104

Post by tablespoon » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

relax88 wrote: post #98

tablespoon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is more or less how it should be. If Amazon isn't going to offer a good enough deal, then companies shouldn't move packages for them. Not really. These companies are basically committing suicide, because Amazon is in such a dominant position. The way is should be is that they could have put pressure on Amazon much earlier, instead of being forced into such extreme action. Nothing will change. Amazon will just…

> It’s not like there’s a club of past & future delivery company operators that meets regularly Why not? “National Delivery Drivers Union” sounds pretty good to me for a name. If you want to negotiate with leverage against Amazon, you need to actually have the leverage. Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry?

> Why is collective bargaining so weak in this industry?

I think because small companies, not workers are the actors here. If the companies themselves got together, it might be interpreted as some kind of illegal cartel. However, it's kind of interesting to consider the idea of a union of small companies (that's permitted only because they're too week vis-a-vis their customers/vendors that they can be explioted, akin to most employee/employer relationships).

Also, if you quit the business, why would keep participating in an organization that has no more relevance to you?

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#105

Post by drzaiusapelord » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #12

> "We refused their demands and they followed through with their threat, terminating their contract with us, leaving their employees confused and looking for answers," she continued. "We’re doing everything we can to support the affected employees including connecting them with other Delivery Service Partners in the area who are hiring.” I'd love for that PR person to drive the route one day and see if they can meet…

Why? She knows the capitalism rat-race as well as you do, its just in her paycheck's interest to say these things just like you do capitalistic contributions for your paycheck. I think the idea that you lead an ethical work life and she doesn't is a bit out there. There's a lot of "but but my capitalism contribution is the only ethical capitalist contribution" in this thread. You're just as guilty as her of that regard.

Why aren't you doing the janitors job for a week everytime you think the bathrooms look a bit untidy?

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#106

Post by PragmaticPulp » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

thatsamonad wrote: post #94

axaxs wrote: post #56

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fas…

These statements seem contradictory to me: > I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope > Amazon’s entire value to me is fast delivery My understanding is that the pace/quantity of deliveries is what makes the drivers miserable so if you want the drivers to be happier and not stressed then relaxing the delivery standards would have the most impact. Do we really need most of…

This is what most of these debates come down to: We can say we want higher paid drivers, warehouse workers, suppliers, and other laborers who work fewer hours for higher pay. But when it comes time to purchase something, the vast majority of people will choose whatever option is cheapest and fastest.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#107

Post by axaxs » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

thatsamonad wrote: post #94

axaxs wrote: post #56

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fas…

These statements seem contradictory to me: > I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope > Amazon’s entire value to me is fast delivery My understanding is that the pace/quantity of deliveries is what makes the drivers miserable so if you want the drivers to be happier and not stressed then relaxing the delivery standards would have the most impact. Do we really need most of…

Ah, I see. My expectation I guess is charging let's just say 1 dollar per order. Or figuring out avg items per order and adding so many cents to each item.

With that extra dollar per order, drivers can be paid decently and at a safe pace. 10 deliveries in an hour is an extra 10 bucks per hour, for example. And of course they can hire more drivers to take the slack, since more people would be applying to this better paying, nicely paced job.

But perhaps my head is in the clouds.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#108

Post by tsegratis » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

Using AWS supports abuse?

At least for me, I think I can't support Amazon's treatment of people. Is there a way we on HN can have an effect here, and could avoiding AWS be a start?

Or is there a better way, or am I wrong to draw such conclusions?

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#109

Post by Symbiote » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

relax88 wrote: post #87

Workaccount2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just cancelled my prime this year after 15 years. I'm surprised this hasn't become a more visible trend. Amazon has no shortage of shitty practices, but it seems very few people actually care.

I don’t think people should have to care. They are customers. They want to buy things and have them delivered for a good price. Why is the consumer or shareholder being asked to solve a legislative problem? Buying consumer goods shouldn’t be a political statement. It’s just ignoring the actual problem of insufficient legal protections for workers. If Amazon can orchestrate a scheme in which they subcontract deliverie…

Political action is difficult, and takes a long time to have an effect. I can't do anything about the situation in the USA anyway.

I can boycott Amazon immediately, with only a small effort.

I encourage you to do both.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#110

Post by nooneknows » Fri, Jul 02, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #89

GavinMcG wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about being disgruntled, it's about not wanting your family to go hungry because you were only able to deliver three hundred packages in ten hours by taking extra care. There's a difference between destroying someone's stuff because you hate your job and just not caring about someone's stuff because you want your job.

> There's a difference between destroying someone's stuff because you hate your job and just not caring about someone's stuff because you want your job. What is the difference, when you said you destroyed the packages in each case?

The difference is the intention.