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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#331

Post by wolverine876 »

mucholove wrote: post #283
wolverine876 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. Americans have long referred to themselves, quite proudly, as a democracy. The distinction is otherwise a technicality for political scientists. A recent political trend has one group, which fears getting outvoted, saying that it's not, that it's a 'republic' (they, of course, that they won't be the ones excluded from power). But the distinction is the…

I think you are confounding a few things. In Switzerland you have 4 referendums a year where the demos, the people, make decisions in concert. In most republics, all you get to do is elect a representative. Some US states do hold referendums like California. This means that some republics do have representatives and the people share decision making power. This however does not happen at the level of the American Fede…

> all you get to do is elect a representative. Some US states do hold referendums like California

You should check out ballots from around the U.S. There is far more than "a representative" on them.

> These representatives are much more susceptible to capture than the entire demos.

I'm not sure that's true. Recent history hasn't shown the public does well with complex issues - that's why it's good to hire someone to focus on them.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#332

Post by GordonS »

wolverine876 wrote: post #328
GordonS wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those protests limited the scope of the war and their governments' involvement. Imagine the world if nobody protested, the free hand governments would have had if nobody cared. > The Iraq War was conducted while constantly pushing back against world opinion. The cost in political capital was high; those protests imposed real costs and real limitations on the leaders. That's how democracy works Did they change the s…

I'm not sure why people are telling you these things, but that ain't what's happening. > The media seldom even covering peaceful protests George Floyd protests, including peaceful ones, dominated the news for the summer. > hazing of civilian populations with helicopters and patrol cars, and several months of increased police brutality There were problems, but I'm not being an 'optimist'. The great majority of protest…

> The only helicopter incident I remember was in DC

Residents of Minneapolis would beg to differ.

> Right, this is what people were protesting. It's not going to change overnight.

They were brutalising protesters for protesting about police brutality. Never mind changing overnight, this behaviour just beggars belief, and shows just how ingrained the problem is.

> You should turn on the news, because it's good!

What I've seen is some kind of attempt at the bare minimum (i.e. banning choke holds, which I think were already banned, and ending qualified immunity) - and IIRC, not a single Republican voted in favour, which demonstrates how polarised things are. AFAIK, nothing has actually changed yet - I'd love for meaningful changes to actually come, and hope that they do. But police unions are very powerful, and police brutality is institutionalised, so it's hard to be optimistic.

> just a reactionary fantasy to say nothing has changed.

> I think the important question is: Why is it trendy on the Internet to claim democracy is so ineffective, when the reality is manifestly so much better?

I deeply resent the insinuation that I'm somehow happy that nothing has changed, or/and that my stance isn't genuine; it's got nothing to do with being "trendy". Rather, you and I simply see things very differently.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#333

Post by vmception »

wolverine876 wrote: post #330
vmception wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are factors of constitutions and has nothing inherently to do with democracies or any system Authoritarian dictatorships and single party countries have constitutions that give the same guarantees as seen in the Bill of Rights and other areas of the US Constitution You are conflating the definition of democracy with ideals you were taught to respect. This is indoctrination by definition of accepting a set of be…

You should stop telling me what I think and why, stick to the issues, and stop lecturing people like you are an authority. You have no idea what I know or where I learned it, and it seems, have little real idea about these issues.

okay, or do argue the point

academics in democracies are viewing it uncritically too. democracy doesn't mean anything related to limitations of the government or a form of inclusivity that aspires to enfranchise everyone. it means rule of the eligible voting majority, just like when all states in the United States only allowed male land owners of Northwestern European descent vote, that was a democracy. All tweaks are adjectives, such as representative democracy, parliamentary democracy, etc.

I'm not responding to the pending questions you generated because they are aspirations from completely left field, used to support your warped aspiration view of a form of governance that has no specific name, that you dream of as right and correct which you also consider a non-existent inclusive democracy to be. I am just hoping you try to explain your view so that you see that on a standardized test, my answer would be the "more correct" choice than your. If you chose your own answer you would get points off.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#334

Post by nindalf »

orestarod wrote: post #327
nindalf wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electing a representative who will make decisions on your behalf is what representative democracy is.

In a representative democracy, do you have a say, control or checks in what decisions those representatives you elected make? Or do they do whatever they want and, tough luck, wait 4 years? Or do they do the opposite of what they promised and tough luck, 4 years again? And the same 2 parties which are essentially the same can get elected and none else, so... tough luck in general?

If you have a system that consistently makes better decisions and leads to better outcomes for more people across countries and eras, I'd be delighted to hear it.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#335

Post by ekianjo »

SonicScrub wrote: post #241
ekianjo wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not a democracy. its a republic.

Which is a form of democracy. This is a nonsense take that somehow appears on any thread related to the US's status as a democracy. I guess Canada isn't a democracy either, it's a parliamentary constitutional monarchy. Oh and I guess Germany isn't either, it's federal parliamentary republic.

> Which is a form of democracy

That does not mean anything. A republic has more stability because of (typically) a constitution which guarantees principles, whereas a democracy can turn into "whatever the current majority decides". A democracy can easily turn into a dictatorship or at least an authoritarian regime just through voting. A republic, much less likely without a bloody revolution.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#336

Post by dixie_land »

lucian1900 wrote: post #308
tablespoon wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they do maintain claims to the rest of Chinese territory they would have to renounce those before being recognized. Which is a PRC red line, oddly enough. Taiwan renouncing its claims would be interpreted as rejecting the one China policy.

The PRC also claims the entirety of China, including the island of Taiwan. It’s not at all surprising that two sides of a civil war would claim the same territory. The one thing both the PRC and the KMT agree on is the definition of China. The idea of Taiwan as separate from China is fairly recent and not widespread within Taiwan, at least so far.

> The one thing both the PRC and the KMT agree on is the definition of China

Nit: Republic of China (Taiwan) actually claims more territory than PRC, including the whole country of Mongolia, and some other territories gifted away to the Soviet Union, among others

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#337

Post by bsanr2 »

answerretards wrote: post #235
bsanr2 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I scoff at the people criticizing the BLM protests and associated riots. We should have learned this lesson wrt the anti-war protests during the Bush years: when the person whose actions you need to change are absolutely intransigent, attempting to convince them directly is not an effective strategy, because they will not be convinced. Instead, the most immediate goal must be to liquify the set status quo…

This comment made me very very mad, very strongly strongly to the point I made this account even though I don't usually comment on HN. You must be one example of somebody that live mostly in peaceful democratic society. You've never seen actual blood, war, limbs, raped girls, beheaded people? heads rolling and kicked down like a soccer ball? girls with vaginas stuck by sticks? I've seen a few, and it happened in a ci…

All I'll say is that your viewpoint is incredibly ignorant of American history, which I can understand if you're not from here, because we don't make a habit of exporting much other than propaganda. You're forgiven for this ignorance but I expect you to make an effort to correct your misunderstandings.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#338

Post by justshowpost »

GordonS wrote: post #136
wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…

> war based on lies

That's quite thick agenda for these millions, heh.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#340

Post by wolverine876 »

GordonS wrote: post #332
wolverine876 wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why people are telling you these things, but that ain't what's happening. > The media seldom even covering peaceful protests George Floyd protests, including peaceful ones, dominated the news for the summer. > hazing of civilian populations with helicopters and patrol cars, and several months of increased police brutality There were problems, but I'm not being an 'optimist'. The great majority of protest…

> The only helicopter incident I remember was in DC Residents of Minneapolis would beg to differ. > Right, this is what people were protesting. It's not going to change overnight. They were brutalising protesters for protesting about police brutality. Never mind changing overnight, this behaviour just beggars belief, and shows just how ingrained the problem is. > You should turn on the news, because it's good! What I…

> What I've seen is some kind of attempt at the bare minimum (i.e. banning choke holds, which I think were already banned, and ending qualified immunity)

You're really missing the news. For example, look up what is happening in major cities, especially the new wave of progressive DAs.

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