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The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

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Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#251

Post by pyuser583 »

denton-scratch wrote: post #224
pyuser583 wrote: post #214

In my humble opinion, geographic indicators are a problem when they create a requirement most consumers aren’t aware of. Plenty of people have no idea champagne must be made in a region of France. If they’re not aware of the requirement, it’s certainly not misleading to remove it. In trademark law, you have to prove that a trademark violation creates confusion. Are there any studies on how many consumers expect champ…

It's misleading to the people that are aware. The law in this country is that you can't call it champagne if it's not from champagne. Anyone that drinks champagne knows this. Same for Melton Mowbray Pork Pies; if they're not from that region, or not made in the right way, you're breaking the law if you call them Melton Mowbray. I really can't see why it isn't bad and misleading, to use a designation of origin on a la…

Ok great there’s an easy way to solve this issue: consumer research.

If consumer research shows that most consumers are aware Champagne always comes from Champagne, and they consider sparkling white wine from Portugal to be “not Champagne” - then keep the restrictions.

In the other hand if most consumers aren’t aware of the distinction, or don’t care, then it’s simply protectionism.

This could create different rules in different places, but that’s just because different consumers require different protections.

But the EU doesn’t seem to care about whether consumer confusion is actually happening.

That’s ironic, as the EU prides itself on serving consumers via regulations.

The lack of consumer research and consumer advocacy is very “un-EU.”

Edit: Champagne might not be the best example, because geography does matter. Different soil produces different grapes.

Edit 2: What is misleading about including the place of production in the phrase “Made in Champagne, France”. “Acme Fine China, made in the USA” makes sense.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#252

Post by [deleted] »

pyuser583 wrote: post #251
denton-scratch wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's misleading to the people that are aware. The law in this country is that you can't call it champagne if it's not from champagne. Anyone that drinks champagne knows this. Same for Melton Mowbray Pork Pies; if they're not from that region, or not made in the right way, you're breaking the law if you call them Melton Mowbray. I really can't see why it isn't bad and misleading, to use a designation of origin on a la…

Ok great there’s an easy way to solve this issue: consumer research. If consumer research shows that most consumers are aware Champagne always comes from Champagne, and they consider sparkling white wine from Portugal to be “not Champagne” - then keep the restrictions. In the other hand if most consumers aren’t aware of the distinction, or don’t care, then it’s simply protectionism. This could create different rules…

[deleted]

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#253

Post by dantheman »

denton-scratch wrote: post #222
makomk wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They insist on this because doing so makes it harder for people who only want the particular style of cheese and don't care where it's made to find any product other than the one that's been given an EU monopoly. For example, for a while Parmesan was a generic name for the style of cheese and Parmigiano-Reggiano was the PDO that people who deeply cared about the origins of their cheese could look for. This wasn't eno…

"other than the one that's been given an EU monopoly" A monopoly is when one company has the exclusive right to sell a product. PDO does not confer monopolies. PDO protects the right to use certain labels. The USA doesn't respect PDOs. That's fine, if that's what USAians want. That's their business. I want to know what is in my food, and where it comes from; that's my business. I rely on accurate labelling. This rant…

They resent the fact that Europeans are trying to control what they call food. Europe can easily add PDO Region/Name or whatever labeling, just like a manufacturing label -- but they'd prefer to try and alter the language to protect their industries... Notice how they're not creating new names, they're trying to reign in generic names.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#254

Post by moomin »

lisper wrote: post #179
flexie wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geographic indications is far less intrusive and far less monopolistic than a trademark is. If I make a search engine the exact same way Google does, I cannot call my search engine Google. Neither in America, nor in Europe or in Asia, or even Africa or South America. And this brand is not even 30 years old. One single company, Google, has trademarked the brand for relatively little money on the entire planet, and it…

Why is drawing a boundary around a geographic region any more fair than drawing a boundary around a corporation? Either way you have a group of people who benefit and a group that does not. If you want to be part of the group that benefits from, say, the Google brand, you don't even have to move. All you have to do it buy Google stock.

You know, when posting rhetorical questions, you should really check to see if it’s not answered in the post you’re replying to.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#255

Post by denton-scratch »

oh_sigh wrote: post #239
denton-scratch wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that's OK; if you don't think parmesan from Parma is better, just buy Kraft parmesan - it's a fifth of the price. But if there aren't labelling laws, then I won't be able to buy real parmesan with confidence. Price is not a reliable guide to quality. Nor is "shopkeeper's discretion". Knowing that the cheese is made in accordance with strict regulations is a good guide.

Again, food snobbery. "If it isn't from Parma, then it must be Kraft quality" > But if there aren't labelling laws, No one argued against labeling laws except the strawman in your head. The question is whether something is specifically necessary about occuring in the region of Parma in the cheese making process of Parmesan. I don't think it is necessary to not let Kraft call their product "parmesan cheese" for the sa…

It's true, there is a "strawman" in my head. I live in the UK, I appreciate the EU's origin labelling laws, and I'm afraid that any trade deal between the UK and the USA might involve sacrificing those consumer protections.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#256

Post by lisper »

moomin wrote: post #254
lisper wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is drawing a boundary around a geographic region any more fair than drawing a boundary around a corporation? Either way you have a group of people who benefit and a group that does not. If you want to be part of the group that benefits from, say, the Google brand, you don't even have to move. All you have to do it buy Google stock.

You know, when posting rhetorical questions, you should really check to see if it’s not answered in the post you’re replying to.

Thanks for explaining what you didn't like about my comment rather than just downvoting it. I really do appreciate that.

For the record and FWIW, it wasn't intended to be a rhetorical question, and I didn't think the comment I was responding to answered it, at least not adequately. But it's probably not worth quibbling over at this point.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#257

Post by kergonath »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #183
kergonath wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Turkish or Bulgarian feta are neither second-rate nor imitations. They also have local names, which would be fine to use. People are not completely stupid. I mean, halloumi was unheard of here [some continental EU country] a couple of years ago, and now it’s quite popular. So people can learn new names. We can understand that cava and prosecco are similar (to a first order approximation, please don’t bite). Same fo…

But internationally, the type of cheese they make is far better known as "feta" than by its Turkish or Bulgarian names. But for reasons that have nothing to do with quality or authenticity, they're not allowed to sell their cheese under the name that international customers expect that type of cheese to be called. > So people can learn new names Of course, but the point of turning "feta" into a geographical indicatio…

> But internationally, the type of cheese they make is far better known as "feta" than by its Turkish or Bulgarian names.

Well, tough luck. My home-made cola can be every bit as good as Coca-Cola, but I can’t go around calling it that way.

As other people noted, the regulations are there to protect local producers and consumers, not non-local producers. They can get their own tradition recognised and get their own PDO instead.

> It's particularly unfair to other producers in the Balkans and Turkey, who have every bit as much cultural heritage of producing this type of cheese as Greeks do.

Nobody is preventing them from making any kind of cheese.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#258

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

cheese_goddess wrote: post #246
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've eaten Greek feta in Greece and identical cheeses elsewhere in the Balkans. I obviously can't prove that to you over the internet, but I'm okay with that. I simply think it's a bit absurd to try to claw back a generic food name, simply because it originated in one country. I can at least sympathize with Champagne as a geographic indication, since there is a region with that name, but "feta" is just a Greek word (…

The word, maybe. The cheese, not. You can't make feta that tastes like feta outside of Greece. And you haven't eaten all those "identical cheeses" or you'd know they're not identical. Although I suppose you may just have a very poor sense of taste. Edit: No, really, I straight up don't believe you that you've tried different cheeses around the Balkans. Maybe you tried one or two, but not the way you make it sound, li…

I'm not claiming to have gone on an extensive cheese-tasting tour of the Balkans, and I'm certainly not claiming that my palate is as refined as that of the cheese goddess.

However, I have had feta cheese in the Balkans outside of Greece, and however unrefined my palate may be, I know that the statement that "You can't make feta that tastes like feta outside of Greece" is untrue. There's nothing special about the artificial political boundary between Greece and Albania that allows the sheep that graze on one side of the border to produce milk that makes good feta, while preventing the sheep that graze on the other side of the border from doing so.

About lobbying: when one political body repeatedly petitions another political body, that's commonly called "lobbying." The Greek government pushed for years to have feta cheese recognized by the EU as a product that can only be produced in Greece. It had to fight court battles and lobby the EU Commission. Greece now pushes to have the EU write the "feta" cheese PDO into trade deals. If you object to the word "lobbying," I don't know what better word you'll find to describe this.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#259

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

kergonath wrote: post #257
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But internationally, the type of cheese they make is far better known as "feta" than by its Turkish or Bulgarian names. But for reasons that have nothing to do with quality or authenticity, they're not allowed to sell their cheese under the name that international customers expect that type of cheese to be called. > So people can learn new names Of course, but the point of turning "feta" into a geographical indicatio…

> But internationally, the type of cheese they make is far better known as "feta" than by its Turkish or Bulgarian names. Well, tough luck. My home-made cola can be every bit as good as Coca-Cola, but I can’t go around calling it that way. As other people noted, the regulations are there to protect local producers and consumers, not non-local producers. They can get their own tradition recognised and get their own PD…

> My home-made cola can be every bit as good as Coca-Cola, but I can’t go around calling it that way.

Coca-Cola is a brand name, not a general term for a type of drink that's been in use for hundreds of years.

"Feta" is just the word that Greek people have used for the past few hundred years to refer to a range of different brined white cheeses that have been produced for thousands of years in the Eastern Mediterranean. Through an accident of history (namely, Greek immigration to Anglophone countries), the Greek word for those types of cheeses has spread around the world. If things had turned out slightly differently (for example, if large numbers of Turks had immigrated to the US in the early 20th Century), we might be calling feta cheese "sirene" or "beyaz peynir."

Greece is now cashing in on that linguistic happenstance to try to force competition out of the market.

> Nobody is preventing them from making any kind of cheese.

They're just preventing them from marketing the cheese under its common name. It's as if one country gained a monopoly on the word "chocolate," and forced producers in other countries to invent a new name that nobody recognized.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#260

Post by denton-scratch »

rsj_hn wrote: post #231
denton-scratch wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's Scotch, then it's "whisky", not "whiskey". Scotch Whisky has no "e".

In the U.S. and Ireland, "whiskey" is the accepted spelling. In Scotland and Canada, "whisky" is more common. These are just regional differences in spelling, and the proper usage will not be determined by where the drink is made but where the speaker is.

That's incorrect. "Whisky" is not simply a Scottish spelling of the word for grain spirit; in Scotland, an Irish or north-american spirit will be spelled with an "e".
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