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The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

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Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#211

Post by rsynnott »

dmitriid wrote: post #168
rsynnott wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm actually totally fine with geographic specifications for a general name. Like "Scotch whiskey" vs. "Irish whiskey". Wait, what are you complaining about, then? Cognac and Champagne are places.

And bourbon is the name of a French dynasty. And bubbles in champagne were popularized by the English and the English (re-)discovered all the necessary infrastructure for production and were the first to describe the process for it. And so on. Names do get commoditized, regardless of their origin [1]. If Scotch whiskey is labeled as "Scotch whiskey", then it should only be fair to label "Champagne" as "Sparkling wine…

Scotch whisky is a protected term in the EU and in other countries which sign up to the EU’s GI system. Brexit does mess with this system for new GIs, but not pre-existing ones like scotch whisky.

And don’t think you can just go calling your knockoff ‘scotch’ to get around it, either.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#212

Post by marticode »

snovv_crash wrote: post #102
Symbiote wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is literally what Champagne is: the name of a place in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_(province)

That's disingenuous. If I buy a wine labelled "Champagne" I expect a dry sparkling wine, not a random red wine from a certain region in France. It is used to indicate product type, not origin.

It's both. It's like Idaho potatoes, you expect some type of potato but also some geographic origin. When the product type is also a location you can't easily untangle either.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#213

Post by kingludite »

barrkel wrote: post #203
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is mainly that these are producer protections masquerading as consumer protections. I would have no problem with a definition of "feta" that focused on things like the ingredients, process or qualities of the resulting cheese. Those are the sorts of things that a law intended to protect consumers would focus on. Instead, the EU defines "feta" by region (with some ingredient and process requirements as well),…

What about consumers that want a guarantee on the production? Can you see a world where consumers and producers are not in opposition, and actually have some alignment of interests?

In NL they sell feta and next to it a product called white cheese. It's not the same and much cheaper but in [more complex] meals where the cheese is not the dominant flavor you wont notice the difference. Say a salad made of large chunks of feta, 1/4 tomatoes, q-cumber, onion, oregano, salt, black pepper, vinegar and olive oil. I would use the traditional product. If the chunks are smaller and the salad has 10 more ingredients the white cheese will do just fine.

I need to be able to tell the difference tho. My interest seem to be aligned with the producers.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#214

Post by pyuser583 »

In my humble opinion, geographic indicators are a problem when they create a requirement most consumers aren’t aware of.

Plenty of people have no idea champagne must be made in a region of France.

If they’re not aware of the requirement, it’s certainly not misleading to remove it.

In trademark law, you have to prove that a trademark violation creates confusion.

Are there any studies on how many consumers expect champagne to made in Champagne?

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#215

Post by alexitorg »

greatgib wrote: post #9

> The wording is strange, it looks like they say that it is wrong to say that it is inauthentic. But, there is no doubt, if you buy Greek feta that is manufactured in Australia in addition with different recipes and ingredients origins, it is clearly inauthentic and deceptive.

It seems crazy that you can have Greek immigrants in Australia making feta cheese the traditional way and not being able to sell it as Feta. It seems to me to be protectionism pure and simple. But that is what Europeans seem to want. In the long run the reputation of products will match their quality, and if it is any good, people will be eating Australian white goat cheese instead of Greek Feta. You see that happening already with Monterey Jack instead of Mozzarella.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#216

Post by dionys »

Zababa wrote: post #167
jhrozek wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off topic but which Eastern European cheese did you find that you like? The only ones I even saw sold outside its are of origin were usually underwhelming. I’m originally from central/Eastern Europe and know very small and local producers but I’m really interested in what you found you can buy in your area.

I have no idea how to pronounce it, but one I really like is I think a braided and smoked cheese like this one: https://dks22p812qygs.cloudfront.net/UserFiles/ib_product/14... The other that I really like looks a bit like this: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0250/1387/8893/products/Arr... but I think that it's younger than the one here. I have no doubts that the local ones are probably way better, but I still haven…

the first one is called Korbaciky (found in Slovakia/Poland) https://st4.depositphotos.com/1046564/41431/i/1600/depositph...

There are both un-smoked and smoked variants, different shapes etc. I think the traditional is the braided one. Definitely recommended if you ever visit Orava/Tatras.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#217

Post by denton-scratch »

Zababa wrote: post #146
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always feel these arguments are a bit disingenuous. You would be extremely hard-pressed to tell "authentic" Feta cheese apart from "Feta-like" cheese produced in any number of places around the world. These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Exclusive ownership of famous culinary names like "Feta" and "Champagne" is valuable, an…

> These laws are not about protecting the consumer from inauthentic products. They're about protecting producers from competition. Yes, they are, and I have no problem with that. When I buy "Comté", I want the money to go in the region where my grandparents were born and raised, where we spent lots of vacations visiting museum, caves and enjoying the local cheese. I don't want some kind of global industry stealing th…

I have no problem with that either.

In this country, we have long made a product called "Cheddar Cheese". Unfortunately, cheddar is not covered by Protected Designation of Origin rules. So most of the cheddar in the shops is imported.

Real cheddar is now pretty hard to find. In my youth, I lived for a while in cheddar country; there was a cheese shop on the corner that sold the most amazing, nutty, crumbly cheddar. It's decades since I've eaten anything like it; even premium cheddar from top-class cheese shops doesn't match it (few Americans have ever eaten cheese like that).

That is: the competition from industrial cheese-makers has forced out the traditional makers, driven down the quality of the cheddar that's on the market, and made it much harder to find proper cheddar. The good stuff can only be found in specialist cheese shops, and even that is a shadow of what it used to be.

I approve of Protected Designation of Origin. More generally, I approve of regulated food labelling (GMOs? Growth-hormone beef? How can I exercise my market-power as a consumer, if I'm not allowed to know what's in the pack?)

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#218

Post by denton-scratch »

himinlomax wrote: post #69
roelschroeven wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the thing is, what if you produce feta with the exact same ingredients and recipe in Australia? The customer gets the exact same thing, only made somewhere else. I'm all for quality standards, so that customers can now exactly what they get. But be able to use a name based on the location where something is produced, that doesn't protect the customer at all. It only protects a selected set of producers.

What if you make Cola that tastes exactly like Coca Cola, with the same ingredients? Geographical origins serve the same purpose as registered trademark, the only significant difference is that they don't belong to a single corporation.

It suits the Coca Cola corporation to manufacture Coke all over the world, using mass-produced syrup combined with local soda water. A PDO would destroy the Coke company.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#219

Post by thiht »

dantheman wrote: post #132
Symbiote wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is literally what Champagne is: the name of a place in France. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_(province)

Yeah, I know. But when we say Champagne, we clearly mean sparking wine of a certain style -- not the location. No one is confused, and if people really care where it's made they can look at the label. This is just trying to use the force of law to limit competition and favor incumbents. They want to claim something is a trademark that isn't.

> Yeah, I know. But when we say Champagne, we clearly mean sparking wine of a certain style -- not the location.

Actually yes, when we talk about Champagne we DO talk of the location too, because the land has a specific soil which impacts the final taste. Even in France we have tons of different sparkling white wines which are not champagne, no big deal. But champagne is champagne, not any sparkling wine.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#220

Post by denton-scratch »

slightwinder wrote: post #99
throw0101a wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, there is no doubt, if you buy Greek feta that is manufactured in Australia in addition with different recipes and ingredients origins, it is clearly inauthentic and deceptive. There is pizza. There is New York (style) pizza, Chicago (style) pizza, Detroit, Montreal, etc. Each of those (styles) can be made anywhere. There's no reason why Chicago-style (deep-dish) pizza couldn't be made in London. Beside the phy…

Pizza is a dish with limited lifetime. It wouldn't be practible to link it to a location. And is there anything specific about the different styles that linkes them to the location? With ingredients you have the specific local conditions, namely the plants, animals, soil, weather, which all influence the outcome. Additionally there is also the local knowledge, traditions and laws which influence the endresult. And fi…

"Pizza is a dish with limited lifetime. It wouldn't be practible to link it to a location."

And yet it has been so linked; there is a PDO designation for Pizza Napoli. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:...

You can make these pizzas anywhere you like; but you have to use proper mozzarella, and rather special tomatoes. I have not found a way of making a good Pizza Napoletana using tomatoes that are not San Marzano. I'm sure it's possible to make decent mozzarella outside of Italy; but nobody seems to be doing it - Danish mozzarella is a nasty, rubbery fake.

We (consumers) need proper labelling, backed by law. Without that, you get a slide to the bottom. Labelling for origin is part of that.

Hey, if you don't care about the geographical origin, ignore the label and buy Danish mozzarella, or generic tinned tomatoes. It's cheaper. But if you do care, and accurate labelling isn't enforced by law, then you are deprived of choice. Without choice, there's no efficient market.

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