The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#221

Post by thiht » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 7:48 AM UTC

seszett wrote: post #184

dantheman wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These terms long ago became generalized. There are already trademarked brands, what does this extra layer of protectionism add. I don't think we should allow anyone to call a hamburger, they can call them ground beef patties on a bun - which is what they are. Same with sandwiches outside of sandwich. Probably the same with indian pale ales, etc.... The geographic term describes a style.

> what does this extra layer of protectionism add It allows people to know the origin of a product, which is the intended purpose. Your other examples have nothing to do with geographical origin, hamburger, sandwich or IPA have never been from Hamburg, Sandwich or India, so they are irrelevant. IMO, calling Cognac a product that does not come from Cognac is straight up fraud, and some kind of notoriety theft. If you…

Note that Cognac has a generic name: brandy. You can create brandy anywhere and name it that with no issue.

Same with Champagne which is sparkling wine, we have tons of sparkling wines in France with their own name and no ambiguity regarding Champagne. If you call everything « Champagne », you lose information. And ultimately it’s good only for big corporations.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#222

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 7:52 AM UTC

makomk wrote: post #193

alkonaut wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So all you have to do is look at where it where it was made on the label -- is that too difficult? Apparently yes. Otherwise why would anyone insist on this? I’m also not at all against seeing the entire new world having to eat “Parmesan style cheese” just to reinforce my own feeling of old-world superiority (I’m half joking, but you get the point of why this may be a thing)

They insist on this because doing so makes it harder for people who only want the particular style of cheese and don't care where it's made to find any product other than the one that's been given an EU monopoly. For example, for a while Parmesan was a generic name for the style of cheese and Parmigiano-Reggiano was the PDO that people who deeply cared about the origins of their cheese could look for. This wasn't eno…

"other than the one that's been given an EU monopoly"

A monopoly is when one company has the exclusive right to sell a product. PDO does not confer monopolies. PDO protects the right to use certain labels.

The USA doesn't respect PDOs. That's fine, if that's what USAians want. That's their business. I want to know what is in my food, and where it comes from; that's my business. I rely on accurate labelling.

This ranting about "EU monopolies" is annoying. It seems to me that it's from people who have never eaten the real thing, can't afford to buy real Roquefort, and resent the europeans for having better food standards than the USA.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#223

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

bcrosby95 wrote: post #126

l320093jj wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing: I'd argue in the US calling it "feta" is not deceptive, because most people I know have no expectation that feta cheese necessarily comes from some area of Greece. I have no problem labeling a cheese "feta" if the location of production is clearly indicated. "Feta" is just "shorthand" for "feta-style". Everyone will just call it "feta" anyway. Maybe it doesn't matter if it says "feta-style" or "feta…

Note that Cheddar isn't protected, but "West Country Farmhouse Cheddar" is. My cynical take is that it doesn't have a more general designation because companies couldn't profit from Cheddar the way they do if it had to be produced in Cheddar Gorge.

It doesn't have to be produced in Cheddar Gorge.

Cheddar Gorge is a canyon, full of mobile hamburger stalls. There are no fields there, and no creameries. West Country Farmhouse Cheddar isn't produced in Cheddar Gorge. It doesn't even have to be produced in Somerset.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#224

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 8:10 AM UTC

pyuser583 wrote: post #214

In my humble opinion, geographic indicators are a problem when they create a requirement most consumers aren’t aware of. Plenty of people have no idea champagne must be made in a region of France. If they’re not aware of the requirement, it’s certainly not misleading to remove it. In trademark law, you have to prove that a trademark violation creates confusion. Are there any studies on how many consumers expect champ…

It's misleading to the people that are aware.

The law in this country is that you can't call it champagne if it's not from champagne. Anyone that drinks champagne knows this. Same for Melton Mowbray Pork Pies; if they're not from that region, or not made in the right way, you're breaking the law if you call them Melton Mowbray.

I really can't see why it isn't bad and misleading, to use a designation of origin on a label that is false.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#225

Post by cheese_goddess » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

alexitorg wrote: post #215

greatgib wrote: post #9

> The wording is strange, it looks like they say that it is wrong to say that it is inauthentic. But, there is no doubt, if you buy Greek feta that is manufactured in Australia in addition with different recipes and ingredients origins, it is clearly inauthentic and deceptive.

It seems crazy that you can have Greek immigrants in Australia making feta cheese the traditional way and not being able to sell it as Feta. It seems to me to be protectionism pure and simple. But that is what Europeans seem to want. In the long run the reputation of products will match their quality, and if it is any good, people will be eating Australian white goat cheese instead of Greek Feta. You see that happeni…

> It seems crazy that you can have Greek immigrants in Australia making feta cheese the traditional way and not being able to sell it as Feta.

It's not crazy at all. The PDO for feta protects only certain regions in Greece so for example the cheesemakers in Crete, the Ioanian Islands or the Cyclades, cannot sell their white, sheep's milk cheese as "feta" anymore than Canadians of Greek origin can. If not all Greeks in Greece can sell their cheese as feta, why should Canadians?

Now, there are a couple of misconceptions about cheese technology in your comment that I'd like to correct:

> You see that happening already with Monterey Jack instead of Mozzarella.

Jack cheese is nothing like mozzarella cheese. Mozzarella is a pasta fillata cheese while Jack is not. I'm not sure why you can't tell the two apart but a possible reason might be the inferior quality mozzarella sold in the US market (I assume you are in the US if you're speaking of Jack). You wouldn't confuse Mozzarella di Buffala Campagna or Fior di Late for Jack if you were drunk on good Italian wine.

> In the long run the reputation of products will match their quality, and if it is any good, people will be eating Australian white goat cheese instead of Greek Feta.

Australian white goat cheese is not comparable to feta. Feta is a cheese made with sheep's milk and with the addition of up to 30% goat's milk. Goat's milk adds characteristic flavours but a 100% goat's cheese made in the same way as feta would have very different organoleptic characteristics than feta.

Also, most feta cheese made in Australia is made with cow's milk.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#226

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 8:22 AM UTC

oh_sigh wrote: post #190

adeltoso wrote: post #189

Food in the US is just such a pile of shit and ability to distiquish quality from garbage in americans is so non-existent that it doesn't surprise me that there is someone here in the US that really believes you can make Parmiggiano or Feta outside the area they got invented. They just don't get it and I feel sorry for them. I lived decades in Europe and US. If you are a dairy and have milk, make your own cheese, may…

Ah yes, food snobbery at its finest. Quality and garbage is generally easy to distinguish by price and taste, and shopkeepers discretion. And I really don't understand what part of the parm making process is necessary to happen in central/northern italy vs anywhere else in the world.

So that's OK; if you don't think parmesan from Parma is better, just buy Kraft parmesan - it's a fifth of the price.

But if there aren't labelling laws, then I won't be able to buy real parmesan with confidence.

Price is not a reliable guide to quality. Nor is "shopkeeper's discretion". Knowing that the cheese is made in accordance with strict regulations is a good guide.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#227

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 8:31 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #28

Personally I just stopped buying "true" Parmesan. Local hard cheese is good enough if not better. After few tries it's easy to figure out what to use if recipe asks for Parmesan(tm).

Parmesan from Parma is a particular food. If you're OK with pecorino, that's a different taste, but it's a decent substitute in many recipes, and pecorino is preferable for some recipes. No doubt there are very nice hard cheeses made in places that are not famous for cheese; that's cool too.

BBut let's not mush all hard cheeses together under the name of the most-famous hard cheese. It's famous for a reason.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#228

Post by denton-scratch » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 8:34 AM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #129

lou1306 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine if no country could call whisky, well, whisky, and each country had to invent their own name for it. Well that's actually what happens, more or less: we do have Scotch whisky, Irish whiskey, and bourbon, and you cannot make some whisky in, say, France, and sell it as "Scotch". For what it's worth, EU laws also struck Italy, which cannot sell "Tocai" wine no more (now it's called Friulano) because the name s…

> you cannot make some whisky in, say, France, and sell it as "Scotch" I'm actually totally fine with geographic specifications for a general name. Like "Scotch whiskey" vs. "Irish whiskey". But some things do reach ridiculous proportions like Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey all trying to lay claim to yoghurt.

If it's Scotch, then it's "whisky", not "whiskey". Scotch Whisky has no "e".

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#229

Post by bassman9000 » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 8:37 AM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #89

bassman9000 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the thing is, what if you produce feta with the exact same ingredients and recipe in Australia? The customer gets the exact same thing, only made somewhere else. You can't replicate weather and other local conditions, specially on foods that require precise humidity/temp control, even air quality. So it's not the same thing. That's the whole point of geographical.

So is the weather the same year after year? does that impact it - can we say, tell producers that the weather varied from the day we established the standard so that it can't be called that this year?

Yes it does, as locals know how to control e.g. drying of iberico, or cheese curing, as they've been doing for hundreds of years, with just basic construction techniques (most of the time meaning open buildings, or basic caves). And they can do that because, minor variations aside, local weather remains the same.

Re: The EU’s disputed system of geographical indications is taking over the planet (2017)

#230

Post by himinlomax » Mon, Jun 28, 2021, 8:37 AM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #176

_nub3 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Champagne" does sound better and more exclusive compared to "sparkling wine".

This is quite subjective. One Californian (or Australian, or whatever) sparkling wine producer could set a trend with a new, memorable name, and become more exclusive.

This is fine Australian Champagne wine. It's a wine with a message, and the message is: beware!