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Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

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Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#71

Post by cik »

karlkloss wrote: post #66
voiper1 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Myth #1. “If you did nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." The US supposedly already decided on this in the 4th amendment: "Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place…

Millions of Germans thought that they had nothing to hide, back in 1930. Until they had. I usually reply to the Myth #1 with "BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!" Really guys, you don't have to know my age, gender, religion, browsing history and klick behavior to sell me a bottle of soda. And for reading a government website or browsing a catalog of goods, you don't need to know aything about me.

Soon, I'm sure it will be illegal to use the various ad blocking, tracking blocking, header alteration, mac address changing, tunnel shifting, and other technologies I both deploy and use. I'm confident that this will happen within my lifetime, which is chilling at best.

It's reasons like this that I've started to eliminate what little online footprint my meat-person has now, while I can. At issue is the fact that I cannot delete my HN profile, nor go back and delete posts. I find that troublesome.

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#72

Post by voiper1 »

procombo wrote: post #70
voiper1 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Myth #1. “If you did nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." The US supposedly already decided on this in the 4th amendment: "Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place…

A great justification my dear goverment uses is that because they don't perform the search directly, (they use third-party private businesses), they aren't violating the law. Of course reasonable people will disagree. There are a lot of motivations for private businesses to collect as much information as they can, just in case they might be able to use it in the future. Thursday of last week a solicitor came up to my…

I wasn't quoting the US 4th amendment to say it's illegal. Rather to refute the argument "you have nothing to hide" -- the US government was founded with the ideal that it's simply not true. People are entitled to privacy. Simply hand-waving it away requires proof, not the other way.

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#73

Post by procombo »

voiper1 wrote: post #72
procombo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great justification my dear goverment uses is that because they don't perform the search directly, (they use third-party private businesses), they aren't violating the law. Of course reasonable people will disagree. There are a lot of motivations for private businesses to collect as much information as they can, just in case they might be able to use it in the future. Thursday of last week a solicitor came up to my…

I wasn't quoting the US 4th amendment to say it's illegal. Rather to refute the argument "you have nothing to hide" -- the US government was founded with the ideal that it's simply not true. People are entitled to privacy. Simply hand-waving it away requires proof, not the other way.

Certainly. The Constitution is a guide to what the visionary founders had in their mind for the new nation. It shouldn't be law directly, but a light to help citizens realize what a balance of power looks like.

In the meantime we want to keep our shoes on at the aiport so we actually pay the government and agree to let them perform ongoing, perpetual background searches on us "to maintain eligibility". :)

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#74

Post by amelius »

voiper1 wrote: post #63
cik wrote: post #62

What bothers me most about this, is how there's even a debate about privacy. While we (western world we) acknowledge the need for privacy and anonymity when it applies to sources in corrupt regimes, depending on politics and time of the day, that same respect for privacy seems fleeting. Children are always likely to learn something about themselves that displeases their parents. This can be anywhere from sexual orien…

"Myth #1. “If you did nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." The US supposedly already decided on this in the 4th amendment: "Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place…

> "Myth #1. “If you did nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide."

My usual reply to that is: "ok, what is your salary, and what is in your bank account?"

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#75

Post by loup-vaillant »

emptyparadise wrote: post #49
kurthr wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow... they are one (or two) horny kid(s) away from a child porn charge and the confiscation of their servers.

They'll just get the kids arrested for child porn instead.

Some may try, but that won't fly if the kids didn't produce the images (not their cameras), didn't store them (not their servers), and didn't share or publish them (not their network.

A more plausible scenario is trying to sue the kids for indecency or similar.

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#76

Post by raxxorrax »

This will be controversial, but an awesome form of self-defense is wrong information. Flood information infrastructures with spam, rumors and fake news.

We should teach kids to game these systems. Eventually they would do so anyway. The surveillance abuse that already happened is just a small example of what future pupils have to content with.

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#77

Post by raxxorrax »

cik wrote: post #62

What bothers me most about this, is how there's even a debate about privacy. While we (western world we) acknowledge the need for privacy and anonymity when it applies to sources in corrupt regimes, depending on politics and time of the day, that same respect for privacy seems fleeting. Children are always likely to learn something about themselves that displeases their parents. This can be anywhere from sexual orien…

Surveillance of kids is a symptom of parents and schools are vastly overwhelmed and they fail in their duties.

It won't be the solution. Actually it won't solve anything.

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#78

Post by npteljes »

amelius wrote: post #74
voiper1 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Myth #1. “If you did nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." The US supposedly already decided on this in the 4th amendment: "Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place…

> "Myth #1. “If you did nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." My usual reply to that is: "ok, what is your salary, and what is in your bank account?"

What if someone then said "I won't tell you of course, but I don't mind if the bank, tax collectors, the police or the govt knows. They already know everything about everyone anyways. I have nothing to hide from them"

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#79

Post by j_4 »

XorNot wrote: post #69
karlkloss wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of Germans thought that they had nothing to hide, back in 1930. Until they had. I usually reply to the Myth #1 with "BECAUSE IT'S NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!" Really guys, you don't have to know my age, gender, religion, browsing history and klick behavior to sell me a bottle of soda. And for reading a government website or browsing a catalog of goods, you don't need to know aything about me.

> Millions of Germans thought that they had nothing to hide, back in 1930. Until they had. Well this is just plain a massive rewrite of history. The Nazi's were not in anyway covert about who they were going after, and they enjoyed broad popular support to do it. "Privacy" doesn't mean a whole lot when the actual metric of oppression was "we're going to grab everyone who goes into that church over there".

It is a very valid argument against data collection for the sake of data collection, which is closely related.

Can't find the exact source, but there was this story about some French (?) town keeping a list of Jews in their documents, for no real reason. It's a piece of data - better to have it than not, right? Might be useful some day. Nazis certainly thought so when they occupied the town and got hold of the list.

Re: Privacy for Students: Surveillance Self-Defense

#80

Post by ddingus »

avh02 wrote: post #65
ddingus wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She is little, so yeah deffo time for tech education. My own kids were not particularly interested, but she is, so that's a nice change. Edit: I am gonna start with Faraday Cage. Thanks.

I don't think you will, but just to be safe: don't come off as crazy paranoid grandpa please!

Yeah, not now. But when the discussion gets to radios and phones, I will. Foundation stuff.

Right now, we are doing lots of basic science.

She did ask how the cellphone works.

When she can understand something about radio, yeah. Cell phone does not answer in here, why?

Right now, it is TikTok. Fun!

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