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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#901

Post by treeman79 »

gentleman11 wrote: post #747
danShumway wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling li…

> What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns The debate is not about whether somebody can use a pronoun. It’s whether everyone else is compelled to use it as well. It’s the difference between positive and negative rights - whether you have the right to compel others to behave a certain way vs whether you have the right to behave a certain way yourself. Legally compelled speech creates a real…

Lost a job for not using pronouns. Tried very hard to stay out it, but kept being cornered o the topic.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#902

Post by screye »

handrous wrote: post #604
makeworld wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean li…

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

The disappearing lesbian is certainly a trend that is being noticed.

More and more women as coming out as trans instead of lesbian, and the 'lesbian until graduation' phenomenon was well known for decades before this.

The general populace has a very shallow understanding of the distinction between gender vs sex. The academic/popular liberal community makes no attempt to clarify the distinctions and it leads to further confused middle/high schoolers.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#903

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

freemint wrote: post #870
neartheplain wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the numbers: In 2019, the most recent year for which the FBI has data, the total US homicide rate was 4.3 deaths per 100,000 people [0] (possible underestimate; incident reporting is voluntary, and 25% of police departments don't submit expanded homicide data). Human Rights Campaign recorded the deaths of 25 transgender and gender non-conforming people in 2019 [1]. There are an estimated 1 million people who…

Don't role your own aggregate statistics when the thing you try to derive by mashing together things created for different purposes is measured or estimated by people. I don't role my own encryption for public use either.

Excellent analogy, thank you.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#905

Post by AnimalMuppet »

freemint wrote: post #870
neartheplain wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the numbers: In 2019, the most recent year for which the FBI has data, the total US homicide rate was 4.3 deaths per 100,000 people [0] (possible underestimate; incident reporting is voluntary, and 25% of police departments don't submit expanded homicide data). Human Rights Campaign recorded the deaths of 25 transgender and gender non-conforming people in 2019 [1]. There are an estimated 1 million people who…

Don't role your own aggregate statistics when the thing you try to derive by mashing together things created for different purposes is measured or estimated by people. I don't role my own encryption for public use either.

You're going to criticize and be condescending, but not supply better data? That's quite unhelpful...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#906

Post by Izkata »

mc32 wrote: post #848
NikolaNovak wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without ro…

I think this raises a few questions. Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Why does this affect as many youths as it does today? No doubt there was unhappiness with one's identity in the past, but I doubt it was at the level it is today. And, in addition, I doubt it's at the same elevated level in all countries. In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you as a kid feel unhappy with your identity…

> Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years?

Labeling - There's one specific example I'm aware of: Girls interested more in "boy" things than "girl" things were once called a "tomboy", but were still accepted as a girl, just a girl with different interests. Nowadays that same kid would be described as transgender and encouraged to transition.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#907

Post by screye »

ben_w wrote: post #434
SirHound wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not an attack on feminists though?

I read the original comment by @caeril as saying that Feminists are TERFs, which would not be accurate as the expansion of the acronym is “ Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists”. From what I’ve seen reported, cis women are on average more relaxed than cis men about trans women.

Aren't a majority of the TERFs specifically 2nd wave Feminists who who do not like the idea of 'passing' as a female being reinforced. This as because they spent their lives fighting so that women did not have to abide by social norms enforced on them. From their POV, since gender is social, a trans-gender person reinforcing the need for transition to enjoy social aspects of being a woman is actively hostile to their goal of making social norms around gender be deemphasized.

The criticisms of transgenderism by TERFs have being a Feminist (in this case 2nd wave) at its very core. Removing it loses a lot of nuance of their specific criticisms.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#908

Post by truffdog »

ratww wrote: post #488
plank_time wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Trans-exclusionary radical feminist” sounds pretty pejorative, most especially the “radical” part.

"Radical Feminist" is the only part of the term that everyone agrees is not pejorative. It is a real branch inside feminism, which lots of women identify with, and it doesn't mean what most people think it does. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

For some reason I cannot recall, a friend of mine had me read a bunch of proper radfem terf blogs back in like, 2010. I remember being impressed with the coherence of their worldview, even if it, uh, was not flattering.

Men were all inherently bad, penis-in-vagina sex was inherently rape, lesbians were good, trans-women were infiltrators and trans-men deserters.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#909

Post by [deleted] »

meetups323 wrote: post #570
scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

The point is clearly that we should discourage folks from undertaking any permanent life alterations while they're still in the "it could be just a phase" stage. To use your analogy, we're dissuading the person from tattooing "I hate broccoli" on them until they've reached age 18 or whatever. Nobody is saying we should deny them their self-image outright.

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#910

Post by joshbert »

handoflixue wrote: post #645
whateveracct wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feminists (TERFs) One note: Nobody self-identifies as a TERF. Or at least not originally (I'm sure in Internet ire people do it ironically by now.) It's mostly a label used to crush nuanced conversation.

No one self-identifies as an asshole or a bigot, but there sure still are a lot of them out there. I'd hardly say that the only use of those labels is to "crush nuanced conversation" - people just aren't inclined to take ideas seriously when they emerge from people they fundamentally disagree with. Telling a democrat that something is a "republican" idea will produce the same result, and vice-versa.

I disagree, those labels have many aims, none of which are good and most of which seem to be a form of ending conversations before any meaningful conclusion is reached.
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