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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#841

Post by will4274 »

colechristensen wrote: post #192
fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

You can notice this in a few fields of popular ideologies these days, that is overcorrecting for a problem to the point of becoming exactly the thing one was originally fighting against. I am of the somewhat progressive-unpopular opinion that some people have an unhealthy interest in how they label themselves and how others perceive them, and in the attempts to be supportive the popular opinion is doing more harm tha…

You said it. One example I find somewhat relevant is the Boston bombers. They were young people in America, with little connection to their local Muslim community. But, like many young people, they were obsessed with identity. They joked about jihad, they bought a license plate holder that said "terrorista#1" for a friend, etc. They perceived themselves as Muslims (despite not following Muslim practices), had a thirst for identity, and sought out that identity online. When that thirst intensified, it drove them to radical communities, they started following those practices that they were told people of their identity _should_ follow, and it eventually led to tragedy.

How does this story go if they hadn't been obsessed with their identity as Muslims or if they had gone to the local mosque to ask about Islam instead of seeking out radical Muslims online?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#842

Post by lhorie »

geoduck14 wrote: post #832
lhorie wrote: post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that trans people suffer from high rates of violence, homelessness, etc. In contrast, amputees and blind people don't usually get kicked out by their parents or randomly stabbed. If BLM (vs e.g. StopAsianHate) is any indication, the level of outrage in activism seems to be directly correlated to the level of violence in high profile incidents, more so than percentage of affected population

>In contrast, amputees and blind people don't usually get kicked out by their parents or randomly stabbed. To counter this, I'll quote someone close to me during college "where I'm from, people like him get drowned in a bucket before they are 2"

For the record, in case it wasn't clear, I was talking primarily about US. But if we must compare, in some parts of the world anything under the LGBT umbrella is considered a crime punishable by death. I'm not aware of any place in the world that considers killing toddlers with disabilities legal.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#843

Post by geoduck14 »

nend wrote: post #460
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

I mean, 2 million people in the US being discriminated against seems like plenty enough people for this to be a worthwhile discussion. But it's not just the number of people. It's also about how severe the discrimination against them is. >Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. Ok but is there a large portion of the population that belie…

> Ok but is there a large portion of the population that believes blind people don't deserve health care for their disability?

Actually, health insurance doesn't cover the cost of a guide dog, which can cost between $40-60k [0]

From personal experience (I'm not blind, but I know one), there is also workforce discrimination in the form of "don't ask her to do that, she's blind" when in fact the blindness doesn't impact the work at all.

>I don't think you would be sitting here going "only .5% of the US has type 1 diabetes, why are talking so much about making sure they get appropriate health care?

I know a diabetic who says he is COMPLETLY dependent on his work's health care to pay for his medicine. I'm not certain we are giving ENOUGH attention to this. [0] https://puppyintraining.com/how-much-does-a-guide-dog-cost/#....

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#844

Post by pseudalopex »

neartheplain wrote: post #734
cwkoss wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And there's a huge number of "trans" who later realise they were sold a lie and have to undergo further surgery to try and restore their original sex. There is no way this is a huge number. I'd be shocked if you could find a credible source on this. This sounds like conservative agitprop.

Studies have consistently shown that most trans children revert to their original gender identity post-puberty [0]: >The exact rate of desistance varied by study, but overall, they concluded that about 80 percent trans kids eventually identified as their sex at birth. Some trans activists and academics, however, argue that these studies are flawed, the patients surveyed weren't really transgender, and that mass desis…

The study they cited included both gender non conforming and gender dysphoric children. Non conforming doesn't mean trans.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#845

Post by geoduck14 »

dmje wrote: post #637
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

Couldn't agree more. The airtime on this topic is insane. People's email signatures filled with their pronouns. The anger. The division. I get it's an emotive conversation but then so are gay rights, gender rights, race rights, democratic rights, inequality, and about a gazillion other topics. That's not belittling trans as an issue, but it's so incredibly noisy. IMO the wider question here is nothing to do with tran…

> Being left wing is not, and never has been, about shutting down conversation, de-platforming, dogma, chilling effects.

>>These are the things of the hard right

Woah. Hey now. People can change.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#846

Post by api »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

Distraction is exactly what’s important about it. It triggers everyone and keeps people from paying attention to other things. Also helps get clicks, sell ads, and boost social media engagement.

Personally I don’t care at all if people want to be trans and be called by a chosen gender pronoun. I just can’t think of a reason I should have a problem with that.

There are a few edge case areas like women’s sports and prisons where it is a very complicated issue, but those are rare cases among rare cases. This is not an issue that should be monopolizing headlines.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#847

Post by erklik »

blindmute wrote: post #629
deadite wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

It's because there is no reason to have animosity toward a woman becoming a man. The main objections to MtF are about safety (a MtF will always be stronger and bigger than a woman on average) and fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really.

> fairness (should male born people get female scholarships, compete in women's sports?). A FtM is not hurting anything or taking any opportunities away from anyone really

fairness is an issue when considering MtF, but not FtM? why exactly?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#848

Post by mc32 »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #823
btilly wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without ro…

I think this raises a few questions.

Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years?

Why does this affect as many youths as it does today?

No doubt there was unhappiness with one's identity in the past, but I doubt it was at the level it is today. And, in addition, I doubt it's at the same elevated level in all countries. In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you as a kid feel unhappy with your identity as much as today's youth feel about their identities but couldn't wouldn't express it?

Is it kids leading the change, is it kids following societal trends, is it other, what is it?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#849

Post by Loocid »

phodge wrote: post #631
drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

In Australia and most other developed countries now, this ideology is heavily promoted to children, encouraging them to believe they are trans. They are connected with websites that promote the ideology, and then connected with a trans specialist who helps prescribe puberty blockers without parental knowledge. If you are a parent who believes that children should be taught to love their own bodies as they grow rather…

>In Australia and most other developed countries now, this ideology is heavily promoted to children, encouraging them to believe they are trans.

Proof? As an Australian with multiple family members in the education industry, I've never heard of this.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#850

Post by bshoemaker »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

Republicans think it's a wedge issue, so they're happy to distract from real issues and ruin trans people's lives.
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