A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#661

Post by adav » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #229

colechristensen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can notice this in a few fields of popular ideologies these days, that is overcorrecting for a problem to the point of becoming exactly the thing one was originally fighting against. I am of the somewhat progressive-unpopular opinion that some people have an unhealthy interest in how they label themselves and how others perceive them, and in the attempts to be supportive the popular opinion is doing more harm tha…

> You can notice this in a few fields of popular ideologies these days, that is overcorrecting for a problem to the point of becoming exactly the thing one was originally fighting against. I've noticed this too, it's not only gender ideology but racial ideology and more. Seems to be form of ideological "pilot-induced oscillation"[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot-induced_oscillation "[Pilot-induced oscillati…

I can’t comment on a particular field or ideology per se, but perhaps it’s social media newsfeed algorithms that are creating the similar effect to pilot-induced oscillation that you’re identifying?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#662

Post by dougmwne » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

oceanplexian wrote: post #642

dougmwne wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only weird to you because you are almost certainly straight, cis and male. Let me explain. All of society is structured around your identity. Like the fish, you can't even see the water because you have always been in it. I'm unlikely to help you see the water, but let me at least try. If you meet a friend, he might comment he saw a movie with his new girlfriend. He shows you a photo on his phone and you say she…

I don't think you deserve to be downvoted but I don't believe having a conversation about heterosexual relationships is somehow free of consequences. Even if I had a conversation about a partner who is straight, people are going to make snap judgements about the their appearance, what they do for work, what religion they belong to (Be prepared to be judged if it is the wrong one!) etc. Many children have been disowne…

I think you need to experience some discrimination to see the "water." It gives you an ability to better understand what other people deal with, even if you don't share their identity. I absolutely think experiencing religious discrimination, gender discrimination and so on can give you lots of empathy for a person not like you, but dealing with similar challenges.

To me it's pretty clear the person I was responding to had zero frame of reference to what discrimination feels like, which is why I said so. I really don't know how to get that through to a person with words alone. I think there needs to be a parallel experience to build on.

It's no broad brush to say that a person who thinks sexual orientation has no bearing on identity must be squarely within the favored majority.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#663

Post by jollybean » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #302

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

Wow - I don't think so, unless by;

"2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a"

... you mean the groups they represent i.e. 'a lot of women' frankly many of them who are not 'radical feminist' or even 'feminist'.

Huge numbers of women are uncomfortable with at least some parts of 'trans women' from 'changerooms' to 'sports' etc..

I don't think the very notion of 'trans' really upsets very many people at all, and that's the funny paradox.

But as soon as it crosses paths with others, then it's an entirely different issue and there's a lot of dust raised by pluralities.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#664

Post by alisonkisk » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #561

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted. But downplaying it is exactly what you are doing, literally. To answer your main question, though: the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subj…

> the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. Citation needed. From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere.

Leeway? You think murderers and batterers give leeway to transpeople?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#665

Post by karaterobot » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:49 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #147

One shouldn't expect courage from The Economist, but it's always wise to bet on their prudence. I don't read The Economist for facts or details so much as to get a sense of what topics a current establishment can no longer afford to ignore. The details are secondary to the neccessity that a writer, a sub-editor, and a senior editor with tremendous personal stake in maintaining access to the circles that define establ…

As an Economist reader who sometimes scratches his head at how late they are to the party, I love your framing here. I appreciate their sobriety though.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#666

Post by bradleyjg » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

fao_ wrote: post #641

brundolf wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a wonderfully nuanced thread on the subject from a trans woman in her thirties: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html Edit: I just noticed the original poster already converted this into a longform post, so the "reader app" version isn't really necessary https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-m...

It's also important noting, semi-related to your post, that nobody is pushing for trans-surgeries for teenagers -- they are pushing for puberty blockers . What this means is that puberty is medically halted until the teenager is a legal age, when they will be able to decide which puberty they want. This avoids a lot of dysphoria-provoking secondary sexual characteristics from progressing, and also avoids accidentally…

What, if any, are the permanent consequences of being on puberty blockers from, say, 13-18?

I’d guess they’d be significant but that’s just a guess.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#667

Post by joe_the_user » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

_etyf wrote: post #522

joe_the_user wrote: post #309

A relative of mine taught at a small art college a few years ago. The situation for college students, at least a certain segment, is that people with the transgender identity are far more common than they once were. That's the base reality, not the product of any ideology. And whatever it's point of origin, this reality for these isn't going to change. Now, you can object to various qualities of current gender ideolo…

>The situation for college students, at least a certain segment, is that people with the transgender identity are far more common than they once were. That's the base reality, not the product of any ideology. And whatever it's point of origin, this reality for these isn't going to change. A significant number of people who identity as trans later return to their original gender identity. This is known as "detransitio…

A significant number of people who identity as trans later return to their original gender identity.

Whatever the percentage of people who chose to do this, that situation doesn't actually change my point - that significant number of trans people exist and their situation is quite threatened.

And the way that you (and other) think that this is a "counter argument" is something of a demonstration that people making these points aim to threaten the existence of transpeople, which is why such points get a lot of flak.

Edit: Note, some number of people identifying as gay later chose to identify as straight. Is this a counter argument to gay people being a reality? Does that illustrate the problem with your point?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#668

Post by jhgb » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

lotu wrote: post #256

kwanbix wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% Agree. At least in my home country, this is mostly fueled by the left (I consider myself center). Lots of them just "work" of doing nothing but protesting, so once they get something they wanted, they have to move to the next thing. For example, they start by making changes to the language so, instead of being "los" (male) or "las" (female) they started to say "les" (does not exists in spanish) as they say it is…

Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority. If people are using “les” than it is part of Spanish.

> Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority.

This may be true in case of English, but not necessarily in case of many national languages.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#669

Post by noobermin » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Given rape is a fear in general (women without penises can rape, you know) may be people shouldn't share sleeping quarters.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#670

Post by noduerme » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

scubbo wrote: post #530

btilly wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made a claim about ideology. You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I stand by my claim. The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment t…

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

Sure, you are what you are __now__, but as a teenager that is going through radical changes. That's why you can't even get a tattoo in the US until you turn 18. In some states, not even with parental permission. Because it's irreversible. The whole trouble with reassignment surgery for minors is precisely due to the fact that who they are today is not who they will be as adults. Of course people should be treated as they want to be treated __now__, but society recognizes that adolescents are not capable of seeing far enough ahead to adulthood to be entrusted with making certain kinds of permanent, life-altering decisions.

There's no debate I'm aware of about lowering the age for getting a tattoo, or drinking, or acting in porn, or other things which are fine for adults, but which we don't permit 12 year olds to do.