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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#301

Post by dang »

metalliqaz wrote: post #104
throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

Sorry to break it to you, but chromosomes are prescriptive. You cannot simply ignore that there are differences between X and Y chromosomes. Society's distinctions between the sexes is not arbitrary. Why do we have separate bathrooms in public but not at home? Why do we have segregated sports? Why do we celebrate feminists but not MRAs? It's because there is a real-world difference.

Flamewar tropes like "Sorry to break it to you" are not acceptable on HN in any case and certainly not on a painfully divisive and inflammatory topic like this.

If you can't keep in mind that you're talking to other human beings who may have deep and good reasons to feel differently than you do on a topic, then please don't post here. This is a difficult enough topic without poisoning it with swipes and snark.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#302

Post by caeril »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are:

1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls.

2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a fundamental, biological identity and cannot be coopted by males.

Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These groups exclusively concern themselves with trans-women.

Mormons are probably another group due to the reliance of their theology on binary gender, but I don't see them as being particularly vocal on this topic.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#303

Post by jacquesm »

smoldesu wrote: post #181
fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

And the reverse: your sexuality - or anybody else's who is not my mate - is not on my list of 'want-to-know'. I simply do not care about the choices and/or attributes of other people though I believe they should be 100% free to make whatever choice they want and be whoever they are, and have gone out of my way to ensure that this is the case for people who find their life's choices frustrated or their reality denied by others.

This is probably a sign of my advancing age, I'm probably a prude by today's standards, but I simply don't find these subjects for semi-public or even public discussion with strangers.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#304

Post by robotnikman »

smoldesu wrote: post #181
fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

Same here. I only address my sexuality when the topic comes up or with good friends. Otherwise I have noticed people do treat me differently, as was apparent at my previous workplace.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#305

Post by zozbot234 »

a_conservative wrote: post #131
dang wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. We're trying for a different sort of internet here, to the extent possible. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Its interesting that you didn't actually tell the poster what they did wrong.

I'm also genuinely puzzled by dang's remark. I had tried to limit the unpleasantness in my comment as far as possible, while providing clarifying info and staying accurate to (i) what the trans activism movement itself seems to be stating internally, as well as (ii) the easily foreseeable consequences of these attitudes, if stated only obliquely for the sake of general politeness. If even that counts as "furthering a flamewar", this has some remarkably unpleasant implications about the overall debate re: gender issues.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#306

Post by ausbah »

twirligigue wrote: post #108

There seems to be a new background assumption that one's identity can be chosen, whereas I think in reality it's inherited.

so you can't gain an identity by choosing to do certain things? I can't identify as a runner because I didn't inherit the genes that make me in the top 0.1% of all runners?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#307

Post by jollybean »

wetmore wrote: post #184
adventured wrote: post #150

The same has occurred in regards to race. For decades the ideological left preached, quite aggressively and consistently, that we must move to a post racial society, that race should not matter. This was the clear majority belief on the left as recently as the beginning of Obama's first term. My entire childhood was filled with that preached gospel: a person's character is what matters, do not pay attention to their…

I think the "they" in your post is actually a bunch of disparate groups. You are acting like there is internal inconsistency, but that's because the conflicting beliefs came out of different camps. Anyway, I think most people in support of the "new" ideology, as you call it, would say that the "old" ideology was flawed. Some might say it was bullshit, some might just say it was misguided or overly hopeful. Ideas chan…

It doesn't matter if the ideas are nuanced, we know they are.

It's deeply hypocritical and exposes lack of intellectual consistency if morally shaming people into doing 'XYZ' for several decades, then castigating them as literally 'Upholding White Supremacy' for doing those very same things some time later.

The 'internal conflict' that will arise in anyone of those people will be insurmountable, and the 'New Camp' will never have legitimacy in their eyes, just the opposite in fact, even if there is some validity in their ideals.

This is borne largely out of the absolution, radicalism, lack of self awareness, inflexibility and binary thinking of the 'New Camp' (it's usually that way with 'New Camps') and because those who are 'just a bit older' have the life experience to reflect back on their own experiences of being 'too black and white' and can therefore contextualize any of the supposedly 'New' ideals at least in terms of individual's own life progress.

The assumption by the 'New Camps' is that they are the righteous inheritors of the fairly unambiguous social victories of the 1960's, that among them are the MLK's and JFK's who will have statues made and words etched in stone as the new moral impetus etc. - but this would be wrong. Despite some obvious things that can and will be improved, most of today's social populism is nowhere near unambiguously on the right side of history.

And finally: I'm not discounting any single idea presented by any individual or group acting in good faith. I'm discounting whether or not they should or will be recognized universally, and pointing out the problems with their assertive posture.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#308

Post by a1369209993 »

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #220
smoldesu wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

As a visible minority because of my race, I wish I had the option. I just try to avoid meat space.

> I just try to avoid meat space.

This is really the best solution, to the extent possible. On the internet no one knows you're a dog, as the saying goes.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#309

Post by joe_the_user »

A relative of mine taught at a small art college a few years ago.

The situation for college students, at least a certain segment, is that people with the transgender identity are far more common than they once were. That's the base reality, not the product of any ideology. And whatever it's point of origin, this reality for these isn't going to change.

Now, you can object to various qualities of current gender ideologies and I'm not necessary uncritical myself. But these ideologies also mechanisms for accommodating the ability of transgender people existing minimally in the world. If someone intends to simply discard entirely these processes, they are essentially taking aim at this ability of transgender people to minimally exist.

It's active question, to say the least. Transpeople today have a significant and growing chance of being murdered for being trans [1]. The attention put on this by the right wing also has resulted in violence masculine-appearing women.

It should be noted that the Economist was talking about debate concerning whether transwomen should be put in men's or in women's prisons. How much do you think that's a matter of survival for these people?

I'd love to see the details of gender ideology, the complex choices involved with hormones and surgery, etc debated more deeply but when the "debate" allows the question "should we allow these people to continue living?", you will see people willing to completely shut down discussion.

[1] https://www.hrc.org/resources/fatal-violence-against-the-tra...

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