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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| gender reassignment surgery SRS/GRS is not recommended for pubescent children by anyone. At that age only hormone blockers are on the table, definitely not permanent surgery. EDIT Posting a reference backing up my claim since I'm getting downvoted: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag... | Professional organizations such as the Endocrine Society recommend against puberty blockers for childre…

Does anyone have evidence to challenge this claim of fact? Otherswise it's useful information.

No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice.

But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#522

A relative of mine taught at a small art college a few years ago. The situation for college students, at least a certain segment, is that people with the transgender identity are far more common than they once were. That's the base reality, not the product of any ideology. And whatever it's point of origin, this reality for these isn't going to change. Now, you can object to various qualities of current gender ideolo…

>The situation for college students, at least a certain segment, is that people with the transgender identity are far more common than they once were. That's the base reality, not the product of any ideology. And whatever it's point of origin, this reality for these isn't going to change.

A significant number of people who identity as trans later return to their original gender identity. This is known as "detransitioning:"

https://www.thestranger.com/features/2017/06/28/25252342/the...

It's a controversial topic, as many trans people see the existence of detrans people as a threat to the validity of their own identity. For their part, many detrans people resent the medical practitioners who they feel didn't adequately provide council or obtain informed consent before facilitating their transition, sometimes involving expensive, painful, and irreversible medical procedures. Some research also indicates most (!) children who identify as trans abandon this identity post-puberty:

https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-re...

The Blocked and Reported podcast, which I generally find to be fair-minded and evenhanded, recently interviewed a detrans person who had worked at a SF gender transition clinic. I found their experience illuminating:

https://barpodcast.fireside.fm/50

The BBC and 60 Minutes have also produced reporting on this issue.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they still can, but without such a bill the women in the bathroom can't take actions like calling security until the man actually starts doing something violent/criminal/creepy/whatever. With such a bill their mere presence is enough.

What if that man turns out to be a trans man, who's just obeying the bathroom bill?

I think you're highly overestimating the rate at which trans people pass. In the rare cases that might happen it'd be easy enough to handle

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#524
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

> Feminists (TERFs) One note: Nobody self-identifies as a TERF. Or at least not originally (I'm sure in Internet ire people do it ironically by now.) It's mostly a label used to crush nuanced conversation.

Interesting to compare that with WASP.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#525
post #211

The same has occurred in regards to race. For decades the ideological left preached, quite aggressively and consistently, that we must move to a post racial society, that race should not matter. This was the clear majority belief on the left as recently as the beginning of Obama's first term. My entire childhood was filled with that preached gospel: a person's character is what matters, do not pay attention to their…

I suspect you are confusing using characteristics to correct for existing bias versus using characteristics for discrimination itself. Specific scenarios may help us explore this better.

Okay, how about Michael Jackson’s ”Black or White?” Is this scenario “correcting for existing bias” or “discrimination itself?”

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#526
post #302

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights.

I'd say that's a vast overreach. It isn't like the Trans Army is going to come burn down your house.

If anything, it's a general notion that transsexuals are mentally ill and that there is something odd about normalizing it. In a sense, that it's not different than people who want their limbs amputated or wear animal costumes at all times.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#527

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

That seems to me a very uncharitable take on the TERF position. For example, approximately 1/4 of women have been raped at some time. It's not very hard to see that such women could have a problem with someone who's biologically male in the women's room - a serious, traumatic problem. You can say that and still be sympathetic to the plight of trans people.

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have evidence to challenge this claim of fact? Otherswise it's useful information.

No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice. But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...

That seems unnecessarily pedantic, since obviously it should be assumed to mean "not recommended by anyone who matters", but I've upvoted you for providing the source.

I was editing my comment with that exact link when you posted.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#529
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

" "A female POC just lost her spot to a white, middle-aged, male-born son of a billionaire. This is supposed to be progressive?" "

Perhaps it's simply a way to more firmly define the progressive stack.

We need an ISO standard in this area.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#530
post #505
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. This is frequently claimed but is untrue, or at the very least highly uncertain. The studies most often referenced have serious methodological errors, including inconsistent definitions of dysphoria (owing partially to proble…

I made a claim about ideology. You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I stand by my claim. The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment t…

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery.

I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-to-entry to such major decisions (especially for children), even while there's also a simultaneous reasonable concern that such barriers will be used to prevent access to folks who genuinely do need, want, and would benefit from it.

But how can anyone _possibly_ deny the first part? How could anyone contradict an individual who states their own gender - on what grounds can you claim to know how someone feels about themselves better than they themself do? Even the position of "they are confused" or "this is a phase that will pass" or "they have been pressured into that belief" doesn't hold water - until that phase passes, that person's gender, their self-image, _is_ whatever that phase dictates. That doesn't make the current situation any less true. If you told someone "I like broccoli" and they responded "that's just a phase, you'll grow out of liking broccoli soon", your response would, presumably be "...so? I like broccoli _now_, what does your guess about the future have anything to do with it?"

Does your position on "accepting gender at face value" change if the statement "I am male" is replaced with "I see myself as male"? Are you more comfortable accepting the fact that someone's self-image can change over time, rather than imagining that gender is some abstract immutable inherent property?

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