A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#471

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:46 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #205

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

>"I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Because men (biological males if we're being pedantic) are statistically overwhelmingly more likely to commit rape and other forms of sexual assault (and other violent crimes) and to be horny creepy perverted sex pests in general. Add to that the fact that men are much more physically strong than women (a ~5th percentile male is about as strong as a ~95th perce…

Please don't post ideological flamewar comments to HN. We're trying for a different sort of internet here, to the extent possible.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#472

Post by NoblePublius » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

100% of people have gender.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#473

Post by mdoms » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

nepeckman wrote: post #360

One thing I find very troubling about articles like this is the tendency to frame hot political topics as essentially academic, while they are in fact very practical. Across the US and England, trans people are being denied access to health care, medically necessary operations, and effective therapeutic treatment. But this article doesn't discuss those issues, it only discusses the ramifications of this political rea…

This article also doesn't discuss the plight of the Uyghurs, bee colony collapse or the atmosphere of Venus. Because that's not what this article is about.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#474

Post by Latty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:47 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #409

Latty wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone having a right to say something doesn't mean they are entitled to every platform to broadcast it. Not everyone can go and speak at a University, there is not enough time and space for that to be viable, just as not everyone can demand to be broadcast on TV. If you can't get enough support at a University to speak, the public square and the soapbox are always at your disposal. The government can't arrest you.…

The person in the article was invited by the university. This isn't a random person demanding to be heard. This is the university succumbing to pressure from a small group to ban a guest from sharing their ideas with the student body that choose to attend.

The students have a right to freedom of expression in protest.

The University should absolutely be providing speakers that challenge the student's views and offer ideas they may not agree with, but that's an educational decision, not a free speech one.

If the student body wants to lobby the University not to accept you as a speaker, that's their freedom of the speech, and it is up to the University to weigh that against the potential educational value.

For example, to start somewhere obvious, someone coming in to talk about how your friends are subhuman doesn't provide a lot of educational value, and students rightly don't want their tuition spent enabling it.

Don't like it, use your freedom of speech to demonstrate enough value to your ideas the University and student body are willing to listen. Students are at University for an education, and they have a right to say what they find valuable and demand value from the University. Denying them that is limiting their freedom of expression.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#475

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #204

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

I sympathise. Sadly society seems to be moving the other way recently: my gym and pool both have significant women's only hours and classes. My previous employer had women only sessions with the ceo to promote more women faster. There was a brief moment a few years ago when the government here (limey Britian) said people would be allowed to pick their gender without involving doctors/bureaucrats. I liked the idea, it…

Trolling will get you banned here. Please don't do this on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#476

Post by pavlov » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #470

pavlov wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ” sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have” This is such a bizarre leap of logic. Trans women are the pariahs of contemporary Western society. Yet the same people who uphold this subhuman status also assume that rapists are nefariously claiming trans female identity. That’s not how rapists operate! They seek positions of power. Trans women are downtrodden and powerless — the least attractive p…

I think your terminology is a bit backwards. A trans man is someone assigned female at birth but who later identifies as male. From context you seem to be talking about the hypothetical of male rapists professing they identify as trans women. A person born male who later identifies as a woman is a trans woman.

Thanks, that’s what I meant. (You write an agitated comment on the phone and make a basic mistake. The usual.)

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#477

Post by yanderekko » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #454

yanderekko wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reason transgender people are getting more attention than blind people is because there is currently a strong movement to regress transgender rights Firstly, a resistance to expanding rights is not a movement to regress rights. For the most part (exceptions apply), the margins of the culture war here are not about trans people being on the defensive against long-standing rights being stripped. Secondly, obviousl…

I gave several examples of people wanting to strip long-standing rights, which are probably some of the first examples people would think of when you mention "the trans debate," so I don't know what to say here except that you're mistaken. I also think your portrayal of the stakes for transgender people is a bit flippant. Gender dysphoria is a pretty painful mental illness that often leads to suicide, so forbidding a…

>I gave several examples of people wanting to strip long-standing rights

I don't think you did. You threw out terms like "sports bans" but I don't think trans individuals being able to compete based on gender identity is a "long-standing right". If you're referring to other stuff you'll have to be more specific.

>Gender dysphoria is a pretty painful mental illness that often leads to suicide, so forbidding a transgender girl from getting treatment and forcing her to go to the boys' room does seem both dehumanizing and dangerous to her life.

Many policy issues will have some sort of effects on overall mortality. But I think it's pretty important in functional democracies that you should be able to have policy disagreements where these sorts of stakes are present without believing that the people taking the opposite stance are sadists or murderers instead of individuals who come to these debates with somewhat-different priors of empirical reality and somewhat-different but not fundamentally-abhorrent values. Trans issues seem to lack this normal presumption, however.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#478

Post by heterodoxxed » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #370

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. Wh…

| gender reassignment surgery

SRS/GRS is not recommended for pubescent children by anyone. At that age only hormone blockers are on the table, definitely not permanent surgery.

EDIT

Posting a reference backing up my claim since I'm getting downvoted:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...

| Professional organizations such as the Endocrine Society recommend against puberty blockers for children who have not reached puberty, and recommend that patients be at least 16 years old before beginning hormone treatments for feminization or masculinization of the body. The last step in transitioning to another gender, gender reassignment surgery, is only available to those 18 and older in the United States.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#479

Post by dang » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:49 PM UTC

mdoms wrote: post #395

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

I don't believe anyone here was holding off discussing any particular topic until we got the go-ahead from oofbaz. You don't get to decide what we discuss. If you don't want to discuss it you can close the tab and move on.

Please don't be a jerk on HN. It only makes things worse and you can make your substantive points without it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#480

Post by Djvacto » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

kwanbix wrote: post #300

lotu wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority. If people are using “les” than it is part of Spanish.

If it was natural an used by all, it could be, but it in this case it was not natural, not used or liked by all, and forced. For example, thief's use their own words and it is not considered part of Spanish for example. They started with gender ideology and then started to escalate. And it is not more inclusive if you force me to leave my believes. If you want to be called "les", and you ask nice, I will probably hav…

Do you have any more information on the abortion policy you're using as a comparison?

Tried to guess which country you were referring to but couldn't find concrete info after a bit of googling.

I don't think the comparison between using more inclusive language to refer to people, and you being forced to abandon your beliefs, makes much sense. Putting aside potential issues with beliefs and their effect on a person's treatment of those around them, no one is forcing you to stop believing whatever it is you believe.

Potentially limited may be how you treat or talk to people, but that is a separate limit than what you are allowed to believe, since once it becomes words or actions, now it's not just in your head but out in reality and potentially affecting others.