A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#331

Post by a1369209993 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #257

just_to_reply wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just like a nickname, though. It's about who you're willing to date, who is put in which prison or who is allowed to compete in which sports competitions.

Are you in prison or competing at the highest level of sports? If not then why not just respect the preferences of trans people?

> > It's about who you're willing to date, who is put in which prison or who is allowed to compete in which sports competitions.

> Are you in prison or competing at the highest level of sports?

I assume they're dating.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#332

Post by cheeseomlit » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #246

cheeseomlit wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

A name is not an intrinsic trait of a person, it's a legal abstraction. Your name has no meaning outside of it's designation as a name and you can change it at any time. 'Mike', 'Michael', and 'Michelangelo' all mean the same thing- it's just an arbitrary word used to identify a person. 'Him' and 'Her' on the other hand are not arbitrary and do not mean the same thing, they refer to directly observable biological traits that cannot be changed.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#333

Post by throwaway_8Z3E » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #124

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Can my nickname be, "My lord and master" ?

I assume you will call me by my preferred nickname.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#334

Post by JabavuAdams » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

danielodievich wrote: post #138

One of my favorite sci-fi authors is Ian M. Banks (discussed here on HN with regularity). His Culture series describe a post-scarcity interstellar society of human(oid)s who among many, many things can change their own gender just by thinking about it. After suitable body alteration time, you can be a male, female, or even something in between (that happens to be important part of one of the characters in one of the…

I really loved Banks' work. Sadly he's gone. But there was always this split between the humanoids and the Minds. I want to be a Mind, not a humanoid.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#335

Post by bachmeier » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #194

bachmeier wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Enforced group-think is going to be the death of these universities. I've been working at universities for a couple decades now and have never experienced "enforced group-think".

Well then you're both 1) of the same political mindset of the majority and therefore less likely to notice and 2) unwilling to take the social temperature of such things because it's obviously happening [1] and there is a mountain of empirical evidence to support the fact that students and faculty are wary of speaking their minds. [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/rabble-rouser/201811...

I very seriously doubt that a middle-aged white male economics professor (who grew up in the sticks in North Dakota, no less) is of the same political mindset of "the majority".

> students and faculty are wary of speaking their minds

If you're worried about disapproval of others, being an academic is the wrong industry for you. If academic freedom and the first amendment aren't enough to protect your speech, you'd really be in trouble working in any other industry.

Now if you're going to claim that in society at large you have to use restraint when talking, and that you'll be attacked by people of all political views, I'd probably agree. That's pretty different from what you wrote.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#336

Post by vmception » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

werber wrote: post #247

vmception wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its also about the possibility of being impregnated Just personalize the idea, your sister or female significant other was thrown in jail, and then housed with a male who is a trans woman who has sex with her with or without her consent and creates an ongoing consequence that is impossible if trans women were not there That would be the expectation you would start with to form a conclusion Sex in male prisons does no…

Some trans men get pregnant and some trans men commit crimes. It’s interesting that conversations on gender identity tend to zero in on trans women

That was the prompt so the replies will be towards that

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#337

Post by plank_time » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

f154hfds wrote: post #327

I can't imagine what this debate must feel like to someone who grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Until 10 years ago gay marriage wasn't official policy of Obama or Clinton or I believe the majority of the Democratic party. The pace is dizzying. It feels like a race to the bottom, but I don't know where the bottom even is. Without push back this could spell the end of women's sports, women's prisons - heck, pretty m…

> Until 10 years ago gay marriage wasn't official policy of Obama

I think you are misremembering. Obama was actively against gay marriage and defended his views against gay marriage through the 2012 election. I think Biden was the one to first broach the topic in 2014 with his active support for it.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#338

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

freemint wrote: post #207

JohnBooty wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know anything about the subject of the linked article, nor her views. Did not venture past the pay/registration wall. I have no opinion about her. zero-tolerance to anybody questioning the current dogma is seen everywhere Generally, of course dogma should be questioned. However, academic freedom does not mean that universities must provide a platform to literally anybody that wants one. Their resources are f…

I am not sure if your definition of academic freedom applies equally all over the world. I understand Humboldts definition of "Freiheit von Forschung und Lehre" an university is obligated to support you once you have been taken on and to fire people because of their research alone would violate it.

In this specific case she was a guest of Essex University and not a tenured professor there, so they were under no specific obligation to provide a platform for her.

    Jo Phoenix, a professor of criminology 
    at Britain’s Open University, was due to 
    give a talk at Essex University

To your point though, I wouldn't find it good for a tenured professor to lose their job for such a thing. However, even the idea of tenure really is meant to be more like "freedom from interference" and not "unlimited freedom without consequences", right? And of course the tenure track prior to tenure is of course a period of intense vetting.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#339

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

plank_time wrote: post #218

I think we should accommodate trans people as much as we can, up to and including letting them be legally be considered the sex of their belief as long as they have transitioned to some degree, by taking hormones or surgery. However, I disagree with getting rid of biological sex. It’s absurd. Even down to the genetic level there is a biological definition of male and female and to say there isn’t is anti-science. We…

>I think we should accommodate trans people as much as we can, up to and including letting them be legally be considered the sex of their belief as long as they have transitioned to some degree, by taking hormones or surgery.

See as they make up a smaller minority than most minority people in the US, I personally think that helping poor and working class people first would uplift them a lot quicker than letting trans people be trans. I mean it's great an all you get to be your own gender, but everybody will despise you knowing you got that way by tax payer money. If you got that way through working and paid for it yourself but were able to via worker protections and rights, the cultural stigma around it would be significantly far less vitriolic.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#340

Post by MyHypatia » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #299

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Trans people are way more likely to be raped then non trans. And cis women do get attacked by trans men. Like, if your concern is prison rape, it is quite odd to start with lowest probability events and ignore high probability events.

My comment was in response to the parent comment referring to cis-women's concerns as "TERF talking points". I am saying that cis-women's concerns shouldn't be invalidated, and that we can figure out a path forward that acknowledges the threat that trans-women may face in men's prisons and also acknowledge the threat that cis-women may face being cell mates with a person who has a penis.

Basically, I think that sexual assault in prisons should be taken far more seriously for everyone. That may mean every prisoner should get their own cell regardless of sex or gender. I don't think housing cis-women and intact trans-women in the same cell alleviates this.