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New network of European sleeper trains planned

theguardian.com

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Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#71

Post by zajio1am »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #61
ArkanExplorer wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO2 analysis of train travel needs to take into account the cost (and emissions) of building and maintaining the rail network. The other factor is that air travel is consistently profitable in the EU, without subsidies. But the reverse is true of rail. The simplest solution is just to impose a $100/ton carbon tax, and let the market figure it out. But EU bureaucrats seem intent on socialism and planned economies inst…

> But EU bureaucrats seem intent on socialism Socialism isn't really a dirty word in Europe (or anywhere else in the world) like it is in the USA. 20% of elected representatives in the EU are socialists. So it's less "EU bureaucrats intent on socialism" and more the European zeitgeist.

> Socialism isn't really a dirty word in Europe

Depends on which part of Europe. In former communist countries 'socialism' is associated with economic system of their communist past, while center-left politics is called 'social democracy'.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#73

Post by cromka »

izacus wrote: post #49
emteycz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ÖBB trains (even the ones reaching Czechia under Czech Railways brand) are super-good experience.

Yep, can confirm, using the Nightjet was surprisingly comfortable. The biggest issue is that they tend to be booked up weeks in advance so getting a slot in private compartment is pretty hard.

Which is a good problem to be had right now, from a citizen’s perspective. Proves there’s a market for these trains and we can only expect more of them coming.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#75

Post by bellyfullofbac »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #46
xroche wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the problem with air travel is emissions then we ought to work on alternative fuels. They don't exist yet. > Globally, air travel accounts for only a small proportion of emissions Air travel is 2% of all global emissions. This is huge for such a small sector.

They don't exist yet... Hence perhaps working on it and investing much more into R&D would be useful. 2% of global emissions is close to negligible. Certainly this does not warrant the constant media coverage against air travel on environmental grounds. This is the usual fluff while the real, hard problems are not discussed. Politics instead of pragmatism. It's really important to go a such important problems in a pr…

Can I have 2% of your paycheck then, if it's negligible?

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#76

Post by cromka »

tgv wrote: post #70
streamofdigits wrote: post #45

For measurable environmental impact the network should at least support the annual migration of Homo Europeanus Nordicus to the Mediterranean sea.

Every year, 3.7 million Dutch visit the Mediterranean. Even if you had sleeper trains with 500 beds (the current ones seem to have around 200), you'd need a staggering 7400 trips (and another 7400 back) for just the Dutch population. Since most people leave within a period of 3 weeks, that's one every 5 minutes. Totally infeasible, I'm afraid.

I understand many of them use cars these days. Otherwise, to counter your argument, there would have to be a plane every 5 minutes, and short-haul narrows bodies don’t carry 500 passengers, either.

Cars are not that big of a problem, especially if fully occupied, which I imagine is very often the case when going for holidays. And especially with increasing electrification, they will keep becoming lesser of a carbon footprint contributor.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#77

Post by cromka »

dkarp wrote: post #66
ginko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

I once took the train while backpacking from Hamburg to Copenhagen. I was incredibly surprised when part way through the journey I awoke on a ferry. It still blows my mind that they have a train that can roll on and off a ferry. Unfortunately, it looks like it no longer takes the ferry and one day will take that tunnel instead https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/hamburg-to-copenhag...

That’s also the case for trains going to Sicily, BTW.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#78

Post by petre »

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #37
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but that's beside the point. People take the train in the same situations when they drive a car, and travel time isn't always the most important criterion.

It is the point. People in Europe very much do consider train vs. plane. I encountered this first hand in personal considerations, family vacation planning and in a policy handout in a big corporation.

Not in Eastern Europe and the Balkans where trains and rail infra are crap. If I were going from Austria to the Czech Republic, sure. Hungary to Greece? No way.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#79

Post by handrous »

swiley wrote: post #13
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

It really depends on where you're going. On the east coast going between DC and Richmond to visit my parents is <$100 and cheaper than driving or flying. Also airports really suck now and I'm happy to avoid them.

I envy those East-coast Amtrak routes. Amtrak's so damn much more pleasant than flying coach[0] but in most of the country the trains travel fairly slowly to begin with, which might be OK if they weren't also routinely subject to 50-100% increases in stated travel time due to having to yield to freight traffic, making them not just way slower than driving, but also extremely unpredictable (so, very inconvenient to anyone waiting for you on the other end)

[0] Of course, being stabbed with a hot poker is more pleasant than flying coach, but Amtrak's a lot more pleasant.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#80

Post by bluGill »

secondraft wrote: post #47
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

> Track capacity at night is often severly limited by maintenance work Makes one wonder what it would do to the economics of train transportation if maintenance work was required to be carried out during daytime and passenger transportation was optimised for comfortable sleeper trains.

Kill it. Even assuming we are limiting ourselves to long distance trips (that is commuting to work is still allowed to use tracks during the day), and hand wave away some tricky where to draw the line issues.

Trains work best when the track is used. That means trains need to leave often to keep the track busy. Leave at 9pm, and arrive at 7am sounds great, but you don't get anyone leaving at 2am, which means there isn't enough users to pay for all the infrastructure needed.

Day trains work because some people leave at 8am, some noon, some 6pm... You need enough riders to fill to 70% capacity 3 trains per hour for 13 hours a day just to break even on all the costs of running a train for a reasonable price. (the numbers are approximate and depend strongly on local details). The more often you can run nearly full trains the better. Your night trains can't do this.

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