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New network of European sleeper trains planned

theguardian.com

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Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#31

Post by ArkanExplorer »

teekert wrote: post #7
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

Flying is just too cheap ;) It's easy to say, but if you look at the environmental impact, it really is too cheap. If airlines would pay the same tax on fuel as cars and were expected to compensate for their pollution, they'd be a lot less attractive.

CO2 analysis of train travel needs to take into account the cost (and emissions) of building and maintaining the rail network.

The other factor is that air travel is consistently profitable in the EU, without subsidies. But the reverse is true of rail.

The simplest solution is just to impose a $100/ton carbon tax, and let the market figure it out. But EU bureaucrats seem intent on socialism and planned economies instead.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#32

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

LeanderK wrote: post #23

This is a great idea. I really like the concept of sleeper trains but I don't think they make sense for when for most national destinations. A german sleeper train network only has a few routes that are long enough. But when viewed from a European perspective, there should be enough connections long enough for a real sleeper-train experience.

I will almost always opt for a sleeper train when possible, even though the routes are always served by day trains with a shorter (sometimes significantly so) journey time. The night trains I take are slower, but personally I believe 16 hours in a bed easily beats 7 hours on a seat.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#33

Post by MereInterest »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #29
calpaterson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the politically inevitable taxes on short-haul flights are brought in, it may not be. As Hebert Stein said (on a different subject): if it can't go on forever it will stop. Railways also benefit from considerable cost economies of scale, similar to the post office, the internet and of course...short haul flights. I wonder what the cost of flying will be when passenger seat miles drop by a factor of 5-10.

Why do you think the taxes are inevitable? Not only are short-haul flights in Eastern Europe not heavily taxed, the building and running of the airports has been heavily subsidized. It has more than paid for itself by bringing tourism income to the region, and encouraging the diaspora to regularly revisit and spend the money they have earned abroad.

Higher per-mile carbon emissions. Paying for itself through tourism doesn't count the externality of climate change.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#34

Post by nottorp »

corobo wrote: post #30
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article discusses the price: Aumont was reluctant to give ticket prices, but said these would be competitive with that of a short-haul flight, including what he called the “hidden costs”. “This includes what you would have to pay for baggage and things like taxis to and from the airport,” he said. So it will cost more than a flight, but not by much. >> Train travel is just too expensive. Why do you say this? I tr…

> Aumont was reluctant to give ticket prices, but said these would be competitive with that of a short-haul flight If I'm booking time off work and the price is the same I'm going to opt for a longer holiday Good luck Aumont

Actually you have the same holiday but you're arriving at your destination in the morning after sleeping all the way, instead of waking up early to be at the airport 2 hours before the flight etc.

Sleeper trains go at night generally.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#35

Post by emteycz »

ginko wrote: post #18
CaptainZapp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think the network, as proposed is a problem. It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network. edit: This at least appears to be the case for the French startup mentioned and the map displayed at the very top of the article.

Well, that's France for you. The ÖBB Nightjet network is a lot less centralized: https://www.nightjet.com/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-251...

ÖBB trains (even the ones reaching Czechia under Czech Railways brand) are super-good experience.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#37

Post by blackbrokkoli »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #27
ploika wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-speed rail can absolutely compete with short-haul flights between (some) European cities.

Yes, but that's beside the point. People take the train in the same situations when they drive a car, and travel time isn't always the most important criterion.

It is the point. People in Europe very much do consider train vs. plane. I encountered this first hand in personal considerations, family vacation planning and in a policy handout in a big corporation.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#38

Post by KineticLensman »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #27
ploika wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High-speed rail can absolutely compete with short-haul flights between (some) European cities.

Yes, but that's beside the point. People take the train in the same situations when they drive a car, and travel time isn't always the most important criterion.

> People take the train in the same situations when they drive a car

Not always. I live on the south coast of the UK. If I had to get to Scottish cities such as Glasgow (450 miles) or Edinburgh in a single day's journey I would fly or take the train, but never consider driving - it would be an absolutely horrendous car journey (edit: at least 8 hours assuming perfect traffic).

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#39

Post by mytailorisrich »

globular-toast wrote: post #8
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

What about the cost to your children? Air travel is just too cheap.

If the problem with air travel is emissions then we ought to work on alternative fuels. That's the positive thing to do.

There is too much finger pointing, though. Globally, air travel accounts for only a small proportion of emissions, which means it gets a disproportionate amount of attention at the expense of more important things.

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