Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New network of European sleeper trains planned

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 117 posts

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#11

Post by dsr_ »

gaff33 wrote: post #6
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

I don't think you can always add in the price of a hotel night. If I'm flying from Paris to Copenhagen at 0900, arriving at 1100 and being in the city center by 1200, I wasn't expecting to have to pay for a night in Paris.

A train that leaves Paris the day before at 1347 and arrives at 0655 the next morning (current schedule) isn't as useful, unless what I really wanted was to spend all day in Copenhagen instead of half a day.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#12

Post by sokoloff »

gaff33 wrote: post #6
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

On the ends of the trip, the train often offers a night of accommodation that is required by the slower pace of the train travel.

For a business trip, I'll often leave on the first flight out Monday morning and fly back Thursday night or Friday night. If the train changes that into leaving Sunday evening and returning Friday or Saturday morning, the "included" nights of accommodation aren't an actual benefit as compared to the competitive mode of travel. Instead, they're a fix to a problem that the train created.

There are trips where I'd rather arrive the night before, so I'm fresh and unrushed for the first morning's meeting. In that case, the train could be better as I'm already taking a night away from the family for performance reasons.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#13

Post by swiley »

nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

It really depends on where you're going. On the east coast going between DC and Richmond to visit my parents is <$100 and cheaper than driving or flying. Also airports really suck now and I'm happy to avoid them.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#14

Post by thepangolino »

zip1234 wrote: post #10
gaff33 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

I'm not sure how externalities should be priced, but it does seem like a good idea, especially in the age of climate change. It is likely politically and practically very difficult though.

Don’t most airlines already offer to buy carbon credits to compensate the flight at a minimal price? Accounting for all other externalities shouldn’t make flight much more expensive.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#15

Post by CaptainZapp »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

I also think the network, as proposed is a problem.

It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network.

edit: This at least appears to be the case for the French startup mentioned and the map displayed at the very top of the article.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#16

Post by calpaterson »

nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

After the politically inevitable taxes on short-haul flights are brought in, it may not be. As Hebert Stein said (on a different subject): if it can't go on forever it will stop.

Railways also benefit from considerable cost economies of scale, similar to the post office, the internet and of course...short haul flights. I wonder what the cost of flying will be when passenger seat miles drop by a factor of 5-10.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#17

Post by swiley »

globular-toast wrote: post #8
nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

What about the cost to your children? Air travel is just too cheap.

My dad worked in DC three days every week (so that's two nights he wasn't home) and still managed to teach me and my siblings math (we were home schooled) and find time for fun with us. I don't want to sound harsh but being away for short periods of time isn't an excuse for bad parenting.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#18

Post by ginko »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #15
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

I also think the network, as proposed is a problem. It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network. edit: This at least appears to be the case for the French startup mentioned and the map displayed at the very top of the article.

Well, that's France for you. The ÖBB Nightjet network is a lot less centralized:

https://www.nightjet.com/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-251...

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#19

Post by calpaterson »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

> First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead.

In the UK, experiences vary. The new Caledonian Sleeper (London-Highlands) is apparently a pretty rubbish experience. However, I took the Night Riviera (London - Cornwall) a few years ago and found it a pretty good experience even though I very nearly missed my stop in Truro. The problem for a business traveller is that you would need a shower.

The other problem facing the Caledonian sleeper is that London-Glasgow is only something like 4 hours and the day trains are very good. The same is not so true for getting out to Cornwall.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#20

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

The article discusses the price:

Aumont was reluctant to give ticket prices, but said these would be competitive with that of a short-haul flight, including what he called the “hidden costs”.

“This includes what you would have to pay for baggage and things like taxis to and from the airport,” he said.

So it will cost more than a flight, but not by much.

>> Train travel is just too expensive.

Why do you say this? I travel through Europe by train a couple of times a year at least. It's certainly not "too expensive" and if you book early it comes out the same as flying.

Post reply on HN