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Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

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Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#61

Post by AussieWog93 »

golergka wrote: post #15
rawtxapp wrote: post #11

I think more companies should (and probably will consider) 4-day maybe even 3-day workweeks as technology makes us more productive. Especially in industries that require deep thinking, the output doesn't necessarily scale with # of hours a worker puts in, not every hour is the same. I think 10 hours of highly productive work is much better than 40 hours of busy work. Anecdotally, I managed to accumulate almost 300 ho…

Many companies would agree if you offered them to work 3 days a week for 60% of your salary. I've done it.

> Many companies would agree if you offered them to work 3 days a week for 60% of your salary. I've done it.

My last employer refused to even accept 4 days a week for 80%. Manager brought up how much the company had invested in training me as a grad (which, to be fair, they did), and that cutting my hours would have meant that investment had gone to waste.

I now work for them 0 days a week. Funny how that works.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#62

Post by kumarvvr »

Of all places, that this is coming from Japan is astounding. The culture of "company man" in Japan is notorious for essentially absorbing and erasing the line between family life and company life for an employee.

There are horror stories floating around on the internet that explain how many stay in office, often later than their boss, just to look like they are working hard.

And I have experienced it first hand. Went to Mitsubishi factory in Takasago on a company visit. I asked the employees there, why do you stay late, and they answered, everyone has to stay late.

I genuinely believe that an alternative to the 4-day week, is to allow employees to switch off their work emails and phone calls on Friday evening. No use in having a 4 day week, when your mind-share is extended to a 6 day week.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#63

Post by SilverRed »

golergka wrote: post #15
rawtxapp wrote: post #11

I think more companies should (and probably will consider) 4-day maybe even 3-day workweeks as technology makes us more productive. Especially in industries that require deep thinking, the output doesn't necessarily scale with # of hours a worker puts in, not every hour is the same. I think 10 hours of highly productive work is much better than 40 hours of busy work. Anecdotally, I managed to accumulate almost 300 ho…

Many companies would agree if you offered them to work 3 days a week for 60% of your salary. I've done it.

I'm sure mine would too but whenever I think about the trade, I'd rather have more money and work the full time. Then I can buy an investment property and relax on the gains on the land.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#64

Post by culopatin »

ekianjo wrote: post #40

Why does the government need to be involved if employers actually get better productivity in the first place? Let employers experiment by themselves and see what works best. Another typical example of top-to-bottom leadership in Japan.

Perhaps because without the intervention, they weren’t doing it.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#65

Post by ddoolin »

xwdv wrote: post #27
paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

Indeed, there’s a sort of Moneyball aspect here. Companies that can accurately pay out only for productive time instead of assuming all 40 hours of a work week are spent producing will make huge savings in payroll, increasing cost efficiency and making it feasible to hire larger cross functional teams. A software engineer probably only really works about 20 hours a week. That’s a 50% savings right there.

They're not assuming/under the impression that all 40 hours are spent working. This wouldn't work because this type of tacit admission works for everyone when they need it, even if that happens to be continuously.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#66

Post by kumarvvr »

ekianjo wrote: post #40

Why does the government need to be involved if employers actually get better productivity in the first place? Let employers experiment by themselves and see what works best. Another typical example of top-to-bottom leadership in Japan.

If the government doesn't make laws that define broad principles, capitalism will eat you alive.

Employers are greedy and evil. Their focus is profit maximization. Not employee well being.

Given the chance, do you really think employers will even give vacation days to employees? No way. They will want you to work 24/7 if the govt. is ok with it.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#67

Post by lkois »

derefr wrote: post #8
toomuchtodo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If not these are great ideas! And compliance can be measured and actioned (turn off lights automatically, lock out logins and emails on holidays).

I feel like anything the Japanese government does that only disincentivizes employees from overwork, without disincentivizing employers from expecting overwork, will only result in employees finding new and creative ways to overwork to appease their employers.

I worked in a couple of Japanese tech offices. Contracts and salary included prepaid overtime, to get around the government saying ALL overtime should be paid. But they must have also allowed up to 40 hours per month to be considered "reasonable", so that number was in the contract, and I'd only get overtime if I went over it. Felt like a shitty loophole to agree to, but luckily both companies were super cool and overtime was uncommon, but happened sometimes. So it felt like they'd just put it in as a convenience, like saying "there might be some overtime, but let's not deal with paperwork unless it gets out of hand". And the "40 hours" was paid regardless.

It would definitely be a convenient loophole for companies to continue shitty practices, so I think I just lucked out with the places I worked at.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#68

Post by MattGaiser »

kumarvvr wrote: post #62

Of all places, that this is coming from Japan is astounding. The culture of "company man" in Japan is notorious for essentially absorbing and erasing the line between family life and company life for an employee. There are horror stories floating around on the internet that explain how many stay in office, often later than their boss, just to look like they are working hard. And I have experienced it first hand. Went…

> There are horror stories floating around on the internet that explain how many stay in office, often later than their boss, just to look like they are working hard.

The horror story there is in how late that takes them to in many cases. A friend spent a year in Japan. Leaving by 8 was apparently a good day.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#69

Post by DSingularity »

goldenchrome wrote: post #54
bob1029 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week You are being a little broad with this statement. One can easily put in 60+ hours for weeks on end and be incredibly productive while doing it. Its all circumstantial. If you have no family, are the sole founder in the company, and really enjoy what you are doing, why the fuck would you stop at a 40 hour work week? Not all of us loathe the thing w…

Yes, if you're starting your own business then it could help you to work as much as you can. However, most people do not run their own business. Most people are low-level code monkeys in large firms where individual efforts aren't business critical. When your project gets cancelled for the 3rd time and you still get a raise, it finally clicks that your work doesn't really matter. This takes a psychological toll. As a…

Yeah, or you can avoid all that by going to startups.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#70

Post by kumarvvr »

eric4smith wrote: post #4

Big mistake. It was the 5-6 day week that built modern Japan. A lot of people are talking about cutting back on days everywhere. But now, more than ever, is when we need to be working harder to get back to where we were before. (Of course, my attitude to these things is shaped by being a business owner -- not an employee. So take with that point of view)

> It was the 5-6 day week that built modern Japan

Are you sure that is because of employees slogging in factories?

Productive people outside of work will develop and nurture their passions. That is a net positive effect on the economy. This leads to new innovations, companies and benefit to the economy.

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