Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank • Hacker News Board

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#191

Post by r3trohack3r » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 12:07 AM UTC

loteck wrote: post #185

r3trohack3r wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not purely self interest. If you note, my comment says my “or worse” outcome is that I steal hospital care from _someone else_ in a zero-sum game. I’m asking what is special about _this_ virus beyond being a “hospital killer.” I don’t believe COVID has a monopoly on your narrative (chain of transmission leading to death). I’m asking if I should be special casing COVID, or treating it like any other virus.

On a per-vaccine basis, you could consider the advice of doctors and health professionals, plus the moral implications you're comfortable with, and balance those against self-interest. You've asked "what am I missing?" and from your narrative I'm asking if you're missing the morality.

This is where I’m at too. I think we are on the same page, but saying it out loud to give you a chance to correct me.

I live in a community that hasn’t taken COVID seriously. Any chain of transmission I carry on would likely be “fungible” in my mind - If it wasn’t me, it would be someone else.

Strong anti-quarantine, anti-mask, anti-short-time-to-market-vaccine.

But mixed in are a lot of _strong_ pro-vaccine folks who collectively have offset the need for masks to keep the hospitals from falling over. They’ve carried the torch of public good in my mind. They’ve offset the primary risk of this pandemic.

I’m on the fence and it feels like my decision isn’t consequential beyond personal risk and daily interactions (friends/family). If I transmit, I feel like it would be in a hurd where transmission was likely anyways and I was a randomly selected path vs an amplifier.

I wore a mask to offset risk of transmission to keep hospitals online. But injecting myself with a novel vaccine… I feel like I’m better off rolling the dice on contracting COVID and re-rolling to get side effects, vs rolling the dice once for the vaccine.

My choice has been reduced to a personal choice. It’s the same choice I make when I travel for the holidays. Example: I get the flu vaccine when I go see elderly or young family members. But right now I don’t feel it’s a moral imperative for COVID where, if I pass on a vaccine, I’m a horrible person who doesn’t care about my fellow man.

Does that make sense or am I off base?

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#192

Post by ch4s3 » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 12:17 AM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #177

ch4s3 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And lets say each vaccine harms you just a tiny bit, which they clearly do I don’t think this is supported by evidence at all.

I have scarring from a TB vaccine on my arm the size of a dime. It's certainly not without effect to have an strong immune response to a foreign substance in your body. I'm not even going to mention the preservatives and other substances they put in them. The strongest hunch that something is off with an animal population, is a low fertility rate. You have negative, declining reproductive rate hovering around 1.6

> I have scarring from a TB vaccine on my arm the size of a dime.

That isn't some systemic malady, it's a scar. I've got one from cutting myself shaving, but shaving isn't really a problem.

> You have negative, declining reproductive rate hovering around 1.6

This is clearly because people are choosing to have fewer children as they get richer. And is a bizarre point as you earlier argued that the virus killing people was good for "natural balance."

It's really hard to believe you're acting in good faith here and not just trolling.

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#193

Post by Obsnold » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 12:40 AM UTC

curmudgeon22 wrote: post #159

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #4

I wish I could get people that are avoiding the COVID vaccine “because we don’t know what the long term effects are” to realize that we have real data showing that there are long term effects from getting full blown COVID. You don’t want a tiny piece of mRNA but you want the whole organism reproducing in your body? The whole genome and all the proteins made?

I think it's reasonable to do a personal assessment of the risk. Yes, COVID can have very negative short and long term effects. BUT, what are an individuals chance of getting COVID? Quite a bit less than 100%. That's not the same math as the vaccine.

I think this depends a lot on the time scales you are looking at. COVID isn’t going to go anywhere once the pandemic is declared over. The chance of you getting it at some point is very high.

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#194

Post by dukeofdoom » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:02 AM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #192

dukeofdoom wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have scarring from a TB vaccine on my arm the size of a dime. It's certainly not without effect to have an strong immune response to a foreign substance in your body. I'm not even going to mention the preservatives and other substances they put in them. The strongest hunch that something is off with an animal population, is a low fertility rate. You have negative, declining reproductive rate hovering around 1.6

> I have scarring from a TB vaccine on my arm the size of a dime. That isn't some systemic malady, it's a scar. I've got one from cutting myself shaving, but shaving isn't really a problem. > You have negative, declining reproductive rate hovering around 1.6 This is clearly because people are choosing to have fewer children as they get richer. And is a bizarre point as you earlier argued that the virus killing people…

1. To be comparable, it would be more like you cut yourself shaving, and had a severe infection resulting in a permanent scar on your face the size of a dime.

Evidence is provided of adverse effects here for the US. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html

"During this time, VAERS received 5,343 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/ad...

For Canada:

There have been a total of 7,408 reports (26.3 reports per 100,000 doses administered) up to and including June 11, 2021.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccine-safety/

2. That's just one plausible explanation you are given without questioning. It might be true to some extent, but its not the only reason for the decline.

Western Women are not able to have children in large numbers, some are struggling to even have one and are spending thousands of dollars on IVF fertility treatments now into their 40s trying.

"About 10 percent of women (6.1 million) in the United States ages 15-44 have difficulty getting pregnant or staying pregnant, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)."

https://www.womenshealth.gov/a-z-topics/infertility#:~:text=....

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#195

Post by takeda » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 4:20 AM UTC

incrudible wrote: post #178

takeda wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also on the fence about vaccine, but what made me take is realization that there isn't only side effects of vaccine, but also side effects of catching covid. Media made us obsessed about deaths, but majority of people survive and among of them small portion get side effects. From what I remember it was about 1 every 10 people that had some kind of issue that lasted after recovering. Even the blood clots that we…

If the risk of (serious) DVT is lower with the vaccine, why did Norway come to the opposite conclusion and ban AZ?

Because the whole pandemic became politicized, and majority decisions are actually driven by politics. The countries are going against the narrative that they are purposefully trying to kill people with vaccines as a method of population control.

There was also heavy disinformation campaign against AZ because AZ was the only non-profit vaccine made and its presence was standing in the way of Sputnik V being introduced into EU[1]. J&J has similar issues and it wasn't affected as much. Pfizer[2][3] was also targeted similarly, but the problem was that not much could be found on mRNA vaccines. I guess the worst one was some inflammation of hart in young people that resolves on its own.

[1] https://www.biospace.com/article/russia-sees-opportunity-in-...

[2] https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-pfizer-covid-disinformation-s...

[3] https://www.euronews.com/2021/04/29/eu-slams-russia-and-chin...

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#196

Post by pepperberg » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #179

pepperberg wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see the "crackpot claims" in this situation? He/she just stated that "inclusive discussion is being suppressed", showing a recently removed YT video. For anyone who can't take 30s to look it up: It is a discussion between 3 individuals (2 of them already fully vaccinated with Moderna) regarding the pandemic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XkRq4PaHqo

They said they’re waiting to get vaccinated. That’s what I was referring to. Then they linked a 3 hour long video without bother to write a short summary of why it might be worth our time. It diverts attention away from an argument within thread and appeals to an indigestible authority which can’t be argued against without spending three hours. And right away there are signs of bad faith. The comment below you bills…

You're right, they should have written a short summary of the content and not make us research it ourselves.

I wouldn't use "there's no Wikipedia on him" as an argument. Karikó's entry is only 1 year old [1].

Additionally, it seems that Karikó's work acknowledges contributions from Malone [2].

Whether he's the original inventor or not, whether his claims are true or false, should be up for debate. But isn't that enough to at least tolerate his opinion on YouTube?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Katalin_Karikó&of...

[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000527369...

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#197

Post by incrudible » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 8:34 AM UTC

takeda wrote: post #195

incrudible wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the risk of (serious) DVT is lower with the vaccine, why did Norway come to the opposite conclusion and ban AZ?

Because the whole pandemic became politicized, and majority decisions are actually driven by politics. The countries are going against the narrative that they are purposefully trying to kill people with vaccines as a method of population control. There was also heavy disinformation campaign against AZ because AZ was the only non-profit vaccine made and its presence was standing in the way of Sputnik V being introduce…

I don't think so, because the Norwegian government made that decision based on a risk/reward analysis by their own public health institute. COVID deaths in the female under 40 group are group are exceedingly rare, likely more so than (lethal) DVT in the vaccinated. It wasn't necessarily a popular decision.

The "Russian disinformation" argument doesn't really work either, because Russia targeted mRNA vaccines specifically. The Sputnik vaccine (in theory) has the same problem as the AZ and J&J vaccines, also being based on viral vectors.

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#198

Post by lagadu » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:00 AM UTC

kybernetikos wrote: post #186

lagadu wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be getting downvoted but it doesn't matter: it's you. You and people like you are the reason I'm not getting vaccinated. I'm from a time when having and exercising autonomy over what one does or does not with their own body was something celebrated, however now society has normalized insulting and bullying people for making their own choices. I will not tolerate a society that does this, fortunately I'm in a pos…

> I will not tolerate a society that does this, fortunately I'm in a position to hurt it by simply not getting vaccinated. Don't think of it as hurting a society that upsets you, think of it as hurting the individual people who get a serious disease through no fault of their own and suffer and die from it. It's very unlikely you'll hurt any of the people who have upset you - they are probably all well vaccinated. The…

No offense but those are pretty weak arguments. I'm not looking to hurt specific individuals, but rather society as a whole; large social phenomena aren't the fault of any individual (although granted some specific individuals may carry a lot of fault, given their positions, Trump and other far-right high-profile individuals such as Orban or Bolsonaro being a prime example of that but that's not what we're discussing here).

Two outcomes: either my not taking the vaccine has no impact on society as a whole so it doesn't matter, or it helps having a negative impact in society as a whole and therefore it also directly or indirectly hurts the groups who upset me (be it via further restrictions, health or economic downturns), in which case I feel vindicated. Most importantly: in both cases my actions spite those who would pressure me into doing it which by itself is a good enough outcome for me.

That last argument goes both ways: people who feel it's acceptable to bully me out of my autonomy should take personal responsibility for the choice they are making, so dismissing that argument is effortless on my part.

edit: I should point out that for very personal reasons I won't be getting in to, autonomy over the self is something that I hold very close to my heart.

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#199

Post by TaupeRanger » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 11:29 AM UTC

ganzuul wrote: post #168

TaupeRanger wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistically speaking, it is crackpot nonsense if it's removed. But if you'd like to make a specific claim I'm sure we can all tell you how wrong it is, using rational skepticism ;)

I don't usually downvote people here at all, but that was such shoddy reasoning that I think you deserve it. The panel had three experts on the subject, including the inventor of the mRNA technology that was used to develop these vaccines, Robert Malone. You really fell on your sword, mister.

Quite the opposite - it seems you are just ready to suspend critical thinking and believe any conspiracy. No, he is not "the inventor" of "the technology". Hundreds of scientists contributed to the development and implementation of this research and the tech that made it possible. Now, please point to the RCT that shows widespread issues among vaccinated people? Hint: there aren't any. The evidence shows they are safe and effective. That's WHY we did the RCTs in the first place!

Re: Brain imaging before and after Covid-19 in UK Biobank

#200

Post by kybernetikos » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

lagadu wrote: post #198

kybernetikos wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will not tolerate a society that does this, fortunately I'm in a position to hurt it by simply not getting vaccinated. Don't think of it as hurting a society that upsets you, think of it as hurting the individual people who get a serious disease through no fault of their own and suffer and die from it. It's very unlikely you'll hurt any of the people who have upset you - they are probably all well vaccinated. The…

No offense but those are pretty weak arguments. I'm not looking to hurt specific individuals, but rather society as a whole; large social phenomena aren't the fault of any individual (although granted some specific individuals may carry a lot of fault, given their positions, Trump and other far-right high-profile individuals such as Orban or Bolsonaro being a prime example of that but that's not what we're discussing…

> I'm not looking to hurt specific individuals, but rather society as a whole

I phrased it that way because I worry that in seeking to spite society as a whole you're missing the fact that you'll likely hurt specific individuals. Most of whom have nothing to do with the reasons you want to spite society.

> in both cases my actions spite those who would pressure me

They really don't. The people your actions (and public support of them) will most likely contribute towards hurting (and possibly killing) are those who are sick in other ways, or those who hold similar views to yourself.

If you live in a democracy, there are much better, well tested ways for you to promote bodily autonomy without deliberately taking actions most likely to harm people you agree with or the sick and weak. I'd love to see the cause of bodily autonomy promoted in ways I could respect, but this action won't help with that.

> people who feel it's acceptable to bully me out of my autonomy should take personal responsibility for the choice they are making, so dismissing that argument is effortless on my part.

Well, I think it's a poor dismissal. If people are bullying you, then they need to be responsible for their bullying, not for what you do in reaction to it. If you're really insisting on people being responsible for other peoples reactions, then don't you worry what you'll be responsible for when people react to your behavior?

It's my opinion that allowing yourself to be so affected by other people's views (whether it's towards spite or compliance) is fundamentally a less good way to live than deciding what you think is right and living according to that.

I do understand the extreme self-hurting aversive reaction to behavior you don't like (and there are places for it), but the internet has made that kind of attitude dangerous - you'll find bullies on every side of every topic, and to let which bullies your filter bubble rubbed you against dictate your behavior in serious ways is to cede way too much of your precious autonomy.