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North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

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Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#261

Texas may do a lot of crazy things when it comes to state government, but one thing I think we definitely got right is the Texas Sunset Commission ( https://www.sunset.texas.gov/ ). Basically, all boards set up by the state government are automatically abolished every 10 years I believe unless the state legislature passes a law to continue the board. So every 10 years the Sunset Commission evaluates agencies/boards a…

What benefits is Texas seeing from the Sunset Commission? https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/ shows a lot of what appear to be wholly spurious licensing types: - barbering - cosmetology - dietitians - dyslexia therapy - behavior analysts - polygraph examiners (!) - auctioneers - etc. etc.

Looks like some of these might be going away soon. Check out HB1560:

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/87R/billtext/html/HB01560F...

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do make a good point. It makes me think of the occasional video of a registered nurse standing in front of a City Council saying things like vaccines cause Autism, or the COVID-19 vaccine has tracking chips in it. Seeing that makes me think that they should lose their license, which goes against the feeling I feel in this engineers case. That makes me worry that I'm making my decision based on if I think what the…

Why should they lose their license? They don't need to understand the mechanics of vaccines or immunity to be a proficient nurse, as long as the standard of care they provide follows recommendations and they listen to the doctors around them regarding patient care. What benefit is there? One fewer person in a critical role due to an incredibly punitive decision is obvious downside. It's like sending someone to jail f…

The nurse was using their profession as a credential in order to give dubious healthcare advice, this is a strong signal that they may be giving other equally questionable advice in their professional setting which is a risk to the patients they are supposed to be serving and a liability to their employer.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#263
Of course it's corporate corruption of government that is driving this case.

"he is an engineer at heart and speaks up when he sees people make what he believes to be engineering mistakes. He has written letters to state and county governments and testified before a county commission. But Wayne’s troubles began when he when he agreed to help his son, Kyle, a North Carolina attorney, with a case about a piping system that allegedly flooded a few local homes"

If he were telling lies, he would be legally accountable to the individuals or companies that his lies harmed. That would probably be an easy case to bring against him to stop him from telling lies. But this approach of trying to silence him on grounds of not technically being an engineer shows plainly that he is telling enough truth that he wouldn't be accountable for lying and causing harm.

Cases like this are probably common, although the methods of silencing vary from situation to situation. While the US may not be as corrupt as many other countries, it still has a significant amount which ultimately harms the general public and certainly harms the few individuals that find themselves on the wrong side of a corrupt authority.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#264
Two complaints: All of the articles I can find are copies of the IJ release. And the title is click-bait.

It appears from the IJ's "details" (https://ij.org/case/nc-engineering-speech/)that Nutt is a chemical engineer. ("Wayne Nutt spent over 37 years as a practicing engineer, mostly working for the DuPont corporation in North Carolina. In that time, he worked with a variety of different technologies and designed and built a variety of things, including pipes for transportation of fluid, while developing deep expertise in chemical engineering and technology.")

He provided expert testimony on a water drainage issue. ("Wayne’s trouble started when he volunteered to testify as an expert witness in a case his son, an attorney, was litigating. The case involved a piping system in a housing development that allegedly caused flooding in nearby areas, and Wayne, who had designed plenty of pipes in his day, volunteered to testify about the volume of fluid that pipe could be expected to carry.")

Then, "After Wayne testified truthfully that he was not (and never had been) a licensed engineer, the lawyers for the defendant threatened to report him to the North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors. Wayne didn’t take the threat seriously; he wasn’t designing anything or building anything, he was just offering his opinion about something that might have happened in the past."

Offering expert testimony appears to fall under the definition of "practice of engineering" (https://codes.findlaw.com/nc/chapter-89c-engineering-and-lan...). "The practice of engineering in North Carolina for projects or testimony impacting the public in North Carolina requires that the individual and company must be licensed in North Carolina. ... Our Board considers that any testimony that requires engineering knowledge to adequately provide and to protect the public falls with the definition of the practice of engineering and requires a NC PE license." (https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/NC_Engineering_ema...)

The court appears to have allowed him to provide the expert testimony, but the Board is doing what it does.

There's not much to see here; no one except the IJ is saying anything about "he can't talk about engineering"---the topic in question is expert testimony and I don't think federal courts are going to regard that as some form of protected speech in this situation.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#265
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly in advertising providing medical advice and what can be said is highly regulated. For good reason too. Intravenous bleach suggested by someone we trusted may have caused some real harm. It would seem reasonable to remove a doctor's license to practice medicine for giving such advice. Of course broad scale communication is different than specific testimony in court, especially from a seasoned practitioner…

I'm probably in the minority with this, but I think all licensing laws should be abolished. Even with cases like the one you describe, other mechanisms could be used to handle the problem and those individuals likely at are risk for doing things on their own anyway. I'd say if someone took IV bleach and it caused harm, the appropriate response isn't license revocation, it's a civil or criminal lawsuit. The past year…

I honestly hope for a framework of credibility, where people vouch for others' competence on a subject. Not just for licensed/protected topics but for just about anything. You know, like those LinkedIn appraisals (yes, they suck but they're just reflection of the society). That ages old "web of trust" idea.

Something without any "mandatory" trusted anchors and no censorship. One must be freely able to put any trust links they believe they want to do, as well as decide for themselves if they trust some established institutions or believe everything is a hoax and decide to trust someone else, say a person or organization we may call a charlatan. Basically, anyone should be able to make any calculations on that graph as they see fit, and use those results for themselves. Just like it already happens.

It obviously would be incredibly broken and plagued with all sort of issues, but it would reflect the society. And I'm not sure how it can be made viable - no web of trust except for the original one (the society itself) had ever worked. It probably need some modern fads - be it dancing pigs like Facebook did for their graph, or potential profits of cryptocurrencies, I honestly don't know. And I readily recognize it could lead to privacy problems, especially given the current trend of radical ostracization upon any slightest disagreement.

But if it somehow works (it probably won't, sadly) it could be the ultimate solution to licensing boards, fake news, propaganda and many other kinds of memetic storms.

But surely, society can't remove licensing requirements before there's a viable alternative.

Just a random thought.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if she's giving her patients bad medical advice that goes contrary to accepted best practices then she should be asked to stop or find work elsewhere. And if she's standing in the hallway doing the same with people who aren't her patients she could probably be safely fired for being a nuisance. There are appropriate public forums for disagreement and in the hallway of your hospital is probably not it.

Your honest view is that if a nurse is committing medical malpractice the furthest extent of punishment should be "find work elsewhere"?

You are using quite an uncharitable interpretation of what I actually said. Elsewhere being not necessarily a hospital, in this case, but at best a hospital that agrees with her medical advice.

Or are you proposing that she be thrown on the streets, jailed, exhiled, or executed? What do you propose? I too can be uncharitable but that probably doesn't lead to productive conversation.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do make a good point. It makes me think of the occasional video of a registered nurse standing in front of a City Council saying things like vaccines cause Autism, or the COVID-19 vaccine has tracking chips in it. Seeing that makes me think that they should lose their license, which goes against the feeling I feel in this engineers case. That makes me worry that I'm making my decision based on if I think what the…

Should the nurses lose their license if there is an element of truth to what they are saying? For example, vaccines probably don't cause autism, but it's possible they could be an aggravating factor. Further research necessary.

>Further research necessary.

The autism link to vaccines isn't at the "further research necessary" stage, it is at the "not absolutely impossible but much evidence against" stage.

The only reason the link exists at all is that vaccines and first signs of autism can happen at similar times and often a vaccine will make a person/small child briefly feel unwell which gets pointed to as a "first sign" because humans find patterns where there aren't any and want something, anything to blame instead of not knowing.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without > issue and then the homeless guy that gets arrested for jaw walking. I'll take the opportunity to branch OT. This selective enforcement has always been such a problem, has there ever been any attempt - anywhere - to address it? Such that if a citizen can demonstrate selective enforcement he can also be absolved of the same crimes that the rest of the pop…

Just the concept of “jaywalking” as a punishable offense is revolting to me.

I find the handing over of personal responsibility for my safety to be alarming.

If I'm about to cross the road, I am perfectly capable of deciding when it's safe or not. If the light is red but there's no traffic, it's safe to cross.

If I'm standing at a crossing and the light is green, meaning that I can walk, but there's a car out of control heading down the road (or an ambulance with its sirens on, etc) then it's not safe to cross, regardless of the green light.

I'm living in Germany at the moment, and you definitely get angry looks and comments for crossing when the light is red (especially if there are children around - because teaching kids to think for themselves and take personal responsibility for their safety is bad?). I find it all very weird.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#269
Nepotistic credentialism scribed into stone by bureaucrats and enforceable by jailtime. This is happening at a grand scale and is only hastening the cancerous growth of Cost Disease.

Oh, you don't have a programming license? You aren't allowed to write C++.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#270

What a fascinating case. There are so many details in such a short articles that is each worth its own discussion! Let’s start with my personally theory that hopefully won’t color all of the conversation about the individual points. This guy pissed off some people and those people are using their petty power to make his life hell. It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without issue and then the homeles…

The guy provided expert testimony in a court. The opposition reported him to the Board of Examiners. The Board of Examiners requires a PE license for those who provide expert testimony. He is going to get to pay the fine.

"Is giving a speech about how to treat a broken bone considered ‘practicing medicine’?"

Giving the speech in a court, on the witness stand, under oath, claiming to be an expert in treating broken bones?

How about an example from engineering? A bridge collapses and fifty or sixty people die. In the resulting lawsuit, Bob, a nationally recognized bridge engineer, testifies, with many pages of reports, that the design of the bridge was substantially bad. Ted, who has a degree in engineering and worked for 20 years as an engineer (designing coffee makers, say) testifies that according to his calculations, of which he presents a plethora, the bridge design was entirely adequate and the failure was an "act of god".

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