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North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

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Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#61

Post by colechristensen »

deftnerd wrote: post #52
colechristensen wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a point to enforcing it, but sometimes it is way overdone. It is a license to speak truth about a profession and perform it. Making bullshit illegal. It works for certain professions where the individual can be a commodity and the customer can't reliably determine the trust themselves. When you're designing bridges or homes or public infrastructure, a lot of times it can be very difficult to pick a good expe…

You do make a good point. It makes me think of the occasional video of a registered nurse standing in front of a City Council saying things like vaccines cause Autism, or the COVID-19 vaccine has tracking chips in it. Seeing that makes me think that they should lose their license, which goes against the feeling I feel in this engineers case. That makes me worry that I'm making my decision based on if I think what the…

I think the key is what you get to say while claiming "I am an X, therefore (implicitly) trust what I say"

Whether it's a medical professional, architect, engineer, etc., I don't have a problem with the speech and actions of a person being regulated by a professional organization while they are claiming to be of that profession. i.e. legally protecting the term doctor/nurse/engineer/lawyer/etc. is just fine.

If you are not, you need to make it clear that you are indeed not a licensed professional.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#62

Post by losvedir »

IJ does great work. They definitely have a libertarian bent, and while I wouldn't necessarily want to live in a full blown taxation-is-theft society, I do feel better knowing there are groups out there providing necessary pushback like seen here. A big case they won here in my state was returning a $40k car that was confiscated by the police because the person was arrested on a $100 drug crime.

I donate to them and encourage others to do so as well. And if you were one of the people complaining in that other HN thread about the alleged changes in the ACLU, consider donating here instead, rather than just not donating to any civil rights groups.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#63

Post by Swenrekcah »

dotancohen wrote: post #46
the_lonely_road wrote: post #20

What a fascinating case. There are so many details in such a short articles that is each worth its own discussion! Let’s start with my personally theory that hopefully won’t color all of the conversation about the individual points. This guy pissed off some people and those people are using their petty power to make his life hell. It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without issue and then the homeles…

> It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without > issue and then the homeless guy that gets arrested for jaw walking. I'll take the opportunity to branch OT. This selective enforcement has always been such a problem, has there ever been any attempt - anywhere - to address it? Such that if a citizen can demonstrate selective enforcement he can also be absolved of the same crimes that the rest of the pop…

Just the concept of “jaywalking” as a punishable offense is revolting to me.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#64

Post by finalis »

erikerikson wrote: post #49
the_lonely_road wrote: post #20

What a fascinating case. There are so many details in such a short articles that is each worth its own discussion! Let’s start with my personally theory that hopefully won’t color all of the conversation about the individual points. This guy pissed off some people and those people are using their petty power to make his life hell. It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without issue and then the homeles…

Particularly in advertising providing medical advice and what can be said is highly regulated. For good reason too. Intravenous bleach suggested by someone we trusted may have caused some real harm. It would seem reasonable to remove a doctor's license to practice medicine for giving such advice. Of course broad scale communication is different than specific testimony in court, especially from a seasoned practitioner…

I wish providing medical advice was highly regulated across the board. Crisis pregnancy centers certainly aren't: https://columbialawreview.org/content/pregnancy-centers-and-...

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#65

Post by logicchains »

morelisp wrote: post #28
blfr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We place similar expectations on legal and medical advice We do and received terrible medical advice during the latest pandemic while people trying to correct it were getting banned from social media. We are also reaping results of decades of terrible dietary advice. The track record for censorship isn't great.

You're right, the unregulated dietary supplements market looks so much better !

Unregulated dietary supplements have killed way fewer people than obesity.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#66

Post by dylan604 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #33

Texas may do a lot of crazy things when it comes to state government, but one thing I think we definitely got right is the Texas Sunset Commission ( https://www.sunset.texas.gov/ ). Basically, all boards set up by the state government are automatically abolished every 10 years I believe unless the state legislature passes a law to continue the board. So every 10 years the Sunset Commission evaluates agencies/boards a…

So when is ERCOT's tenure due? Moste useless of the useless.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#67

Post by logicchains »

flenserboy wrote: post #57
chiph wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And since this fellow spent probably 30+ years as a practicing engineer, I would think his experience counts for more than someone who got their PE the previous week.

Credentialism lifts up and empowers the mediocre while cutting off discussion. This results in sclerotic professions and oversight authorities which cannot adapt to changing conditions, usually causing far more and worse long-term damage than any short-term issues they prevent. I can only speak for the US, but look around — this is a real issue in medicine, law, and most anywhere you look, and the problem has been ac…

> the problem has been accelerated by the sheer number of college/grad degrees given out like candy the last 20 years

At least in medicine this isn't the case; the AMA effectively limits the number of positions available. The ratio of doctors to patients has hence been steadily decreasing over the past few decades.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#68

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

I see here a huge imbalance. On one hand, there's a board that can order an expert in a certain field to shut up and not even talk about his field of expertise, and now said expert has to go to the court.

On the other hand, the internet has become this fucking enormous megaphone of people who have no idea what they're talking about, they are also completely free to put up fucking billboards IRL about, say, how the pandemic is a hoax and how vaccines are dangerous — nobody bats an eye, and there's really is no efficient way to get them to shut the fuck up about stuff they've got no clue about.

Now I'm not saying there should be censorship (although requiring tinfoil hat wielders to pay hefty license fees sounds very tempting), but it looks like today it's way easier to silence a real subject matter expert than a pompous charlatan, and that's plain unfair.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#69

Post by flenserboy »

logicchains wrote: post #67
flenserboy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credentialism lifts up and empowers the mediocre while cutting off discussion. This results in sclerotic professions and oversight authorities which cannot adapt to changing conditions, usually causing far more and worse long-term damage than any short-term issues they prevent. I can only speak for the US, but look around — this is a real issue in medicine, law, and most anywhere you look, and the problem has been ac…

> the problem has been accelerated by the sheer number of college/grad degrees given out like candy the last 20 years At least in medicine this isn't the case; the AMA effectively limits the number of positions available. The ratio of doctors to patients has hence been steadily decreasing over the past few decades.

You're right on that — I was thinking more (and should have specified) supporting professions, such as dietitians.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#70

Post by JackFr »

yokaze wrote: post #11
clejack wrote: post #5

I first read this and immediately thought it was ridiculous. After a second read, I'm wondering if there is some deception going on. The idea that a license should be required to make advisement on designs impacting the public is reasonable. While nothing is guaranteed, it allows for a simple verification of skills. I find it hard to believe that any engineer would not know this because I was told companies and the g…

You can read the letter linked in the article: https://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/NC_Engineering_051... It looks to me more the latter: he "helping his son" by "speaking about engineering" is a written report in a court case. Quite a bit of framing

After reading the law, it actually seems to be a clear violation.

He is not a party in the court case so presumably his testimony is that of an expert witness. Providing expert testimony as an engineer sounds an awful lot like practicing engineering. He is not licensed and he is not practicing under the aegis of a licensed firm. He's in violation of the law.

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