North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#241

Post by tomc1985 » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

Noumenon72 wrote: post #115

beebeepka wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it not create jobs? Not saying it's good nor bad.

If it creates jobs and doesn't do anything, it is bad, like anything else that has a cost but no benefits. Jobs are costs -- they force you to spend your life doing one thing when you could be doing all manner of other useful things. Only if your job produces useful things does that benefit outweigh the cost of having to spend your life on it.

No benefits? It keeps people off the streets and gives them something to do, pointless or not. The net benefit to society is positive, which is why it keeps getting voted for.

I live in a place with a severe homeless problem. I wish these people had pointless government jobs rather than be out begging on the street.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#242

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

EricE wrote: post #180

brianwawok wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should these not be licensed? A dietitian giving bad advice could cause serious harm. A dyslexia therapist could provide no benefit to the patient. A cosmetologist could cause someone's hair to fall out. Like, having something deeper than yelp reviews to help make someone's hair not fall out seems reasonable...

lol - the problem is these laws restrict far more than they help. Just look at AB-5 in CA - lobbyist driven legislation full of unintended consequences that, amusingly, bit a lot of people in the press (who were pushing it) in the ass since it severely limited what they could do as a freelancer vs. an employee. All the other licensing requirements do is favor incumbents and restrict competition. Amazon was against pa…

The initial motivation for the licensing of medical doctors was to put minority doctors out of business.

See "Competition and Monopoly in Medical Care" by Frech.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#243

Post by DangitBobby » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

corin_ wrote: post #232

DangitBobby wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not what's happening either. Why don't we represent the reality with itself. She's expressing an idea publicly that she thinks is important for public safety. She is not hurting her patients by doing this. Idiots are dangerous, but the cure is worse than the disease, if the cure is to destroy people for non-violently expressing their concerns genuinely doing what they believe is in the best interest of the…

Right, as I said in my first comment I don't consider myself able to judge where the line should be drawn regarding this real person, so I created a hypothetical person to see if you still believed it would be ridiculous to fire any nurse for anything they say outside work hours.

Yes, if she's giving her patients bad medical advice that goes contrary to accepted best practices then she should be asked to stop or find work elsewhere. And if she's standing in the hallway doing the same with people who aren't her patients she could probably be safely fired for being a nuisance. There are appropriate public forums for disagreement and in the hallway of your hospital is probably not it.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#244

Post by e40 » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

the_lonely_road wrote: post #20

What a fascinating case. There are so many details in such a short articles that is each worth its own discussion! Let’s start with my personally theory that hopefully won’t color all of the conversation about the individual points. This guy pissed off some people and those people are using their petty power to make his life hell. It’s like the 10’s of thousands of people jaywalking without issue and then the homeles…

This guy pissed off some people and those people are using their petty power to make his life hell.

And "pissed off" in this case means behaving perfectly normally, legally and how we all hope a person would behave.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#245

Post by mindslight » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #231

mindslight wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineering generally refers to design and building , of which analysis is a single part. So it's not immediately apparent that Nutt was practicing engineering at all. It's more accurate to say that the kind of projects civil engineers work on generally end up requiring a PE, as a condition of actually being built. Small time civil engineering in your own backyard does not require a PE - eg improving drainage, settin…

Here the practice of engineering is specifically set out in statute, regulation, and legal precedent. As are the duties of the board, its process, penalties for violations, and appeals processes. The board is investigating a case based on its authority. The authority exists via democratic process originating with the legislative process and state constitution. The regulation of engineering is within the scope of the…

You didn't address the substantive part of my comment. Straightforwardly under the regime you've described, individuals are not only prevented from, but can be actively punished for:

1. Using mathematical formulas to demonstrate facts, such as pointing out that speed can be calculated by distance over time.

2. Pointing out how a red light camera fails to meet required implementation details.

3. Pointing out how a bridge is unsafe.

4. Pointing out that an expert witness is glaringly wrong.

5. Comment on the details of a public proposal.

Nutt's case is analogous to 3. Nutt did not design the stormwater system. He is critiquing it for a poor design. In an open society, that is everyone's right. The court can choose to find his reasoning lacking or simply non-understandable, but he shouldn't then be getting attacked for having spoken his opinion.

Errors and disagreements are common in engineering, as in any art, and so any honest engineer should be worried about criminalizing debate. Given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow.

Licensure boards can be notoriously aggressive, which is why this case is getting attention. Furthermore, state-chartered entities are commonly over scoped because they're really just extensions of the state executive, with only court cases to push back on them. Your argument from status quo is uncompelling.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#246

Post by frankus » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #149

thaumasiotes wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefits is Texas seeing from the Sunset Commission? https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/ shows a lot of what appear to be wholly spurious licensing types: - barbering - cosmetology - dietitians - dyslexia therapy - behavior analysts - polygraph examiners (!) - auctioneers - etc. etc.

Why should these not be licensed? A dietitian giving bad advice could cause serious harm. A dyslexia therapist could provide no benefit to the patient. A cosmetologist could cause someone's hair to fall out. Like, having something deeper than yelp reviews to help make someone's hair not fall out seems reasonable...

The requirement to have a license for these types of fields is reasonable.

What tends to happen, however, is that the requirements to acquire a license grow beyond basic health and safety to include a ton of formal education. This is probably due in part to the fact that practitioners are well represented among the people designing the licensing requirements, and they have a vested interest in erecting and maintaining barriers to new entrants.

For example, it typically takes 1,500 hours of instruction to become licensed to cut peoples hair in exchange for money. That amount of training might be reasonable for someone working with potentially harmful chemicals, but on the other hand I can give someone a pretty decent buzzcut and have approximately zero hours of training (but would still face civil penalties if I were to open Frankus' Buzzcut Studio).

It's also worth noting that licensing doesn't necessarily have to be enforced by the state, (although I agree that basic knowledge of the health and safety aspects of an occupation is probably a reasonable requirement to be state-enforced).

You could have a private credentialing agency that certifies practitioners who have completed additional study or exams, or have a certain minimum amount of experience (something along the lines of Microsoft's MCSE credential, but for, say, applying makeup).

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#247

Post by rpmisms » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #33

Texas may do a lot of crazy things when it comes to state government, but one thing I think we definitely got right is the Texas Sunset Commission ( https://www.sunset.texas.gov/ ). Basically, all boards set up by the state government are automatically abolished every 10 years I believe unless the state legislature passes a law to continue the board. So every 10 years the Sunset Commission evaluates agencies/boards a…

I think that would be a wonderful thing to implement federally. I believe that one thing most rational people can agree on is that government spending is out of control. Causing there to be fewer pockets for taxes to fill could be very beneficial in the long term, especially if you support social programs to help the less fortunate.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#248

Post by antiterra » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #226

antiterra wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This particular engineer worked legally as an engineer for DuPontt due to an industrial exception and was not required to license. There was no corner cut. 2. There is some precedent implying a free speech concern: https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-eng...

My understanding is the events that sparked the investigation were outside of the subject’s workplace/employment. Hence “retired.” The preponderance of precedent favors the board’s concerns and right to investigate. Being slightly familiar with North Carolina professional regulations, I suspect this holds true at the state level in particular. The legal argument is inconsistent. It claims that the regulations don’t a…

The first point addressed the suggest that any engineer who didn’t get their license must be suspect and is cheating the rules.

You seem to have missed the legal argument in the Oregon case which had nothing to do with an industrial exemption.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#249

Post by briffle » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

irrational wrote: post #167

systemvoltage wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregon’s gas pumping laws has some hilarious justifications. > “The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon’s weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility” More here: https://medium.com/policy-northwest/the-insanity-of-oregons-... Safety is important but wet pavements are also a hazard when you leave your house or literall…

I live in Oregon, but grew up outside the state so fortunately I do know how to pump my own gas. One thing that has fascinated me is that our gas is no more expensive, and often cheaper, than surrounding states despite providing many jobs. One benefit of this system was shown recently when no truck beds or plastic bags were filled with gasoline.

I have had other customers in Oregon very, very loud and angry about me getting out and running the pump myself. They immediately dismiss my statement that it’s perfectly legal for us to dispense diesel, just not gasoline, until an employee usually tells them it’s legal and they appreciate it.

Re: North Carolina tells retired engineer he can't talk about engineering

#250

Post by jbluepolarbear » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 8:29 PM UTC

Here’s the thing I don’t understand, why are licenses required for engineers? Is it an ethics thing? This reminds me of the guy here in Portland that told the city their traffic lights were wrong and they fined him for not having an engineering license.

I don’t have a degree, no license, or accreditation, yet I’ve worked for government contracts, medical software, and designed hardware for doctors. Would I then be sued for giving advice from my proven track record? I’ve never called myself an engineer yet most of my job titles say Engineer.