Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps • Hacker News Board

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#211

Post by Thiez » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #198

kyriee wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response to that problematic event seems like dealing with trauma and some of the words you use like “our society has become […] significantly more feminized” seem to indicate some of those issues are still unresolved. While I appreciate that you turned this into a positive, I don’t think violence and tough love is something we should promote, celebrate or even tolerate as a society. Here is a crazy thought: how…

My statement on the feminization of society doesn't come from trauma. Global testosterone levels have been dropping for decades[1]. You can see it in old pictures: men were less fat, more competitive, and happier. Rates of sex and relationships among men and young boys have dropped precipitously. Speaking anecdotally, I feel most fulfilled when I embrace my masculine side and focus it on positive pursuits. Competitio…

> Rates of sex and relationships among men and young boys have dropped precipitously.

Perhaps I am reading this wrong, but it sounds a lot like you want a return of pederasty? Let's assume you mean relationships and sex with people of similar ages, what ages should we imagine when you say "young boys"?

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#212

Post by Can_Not » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #198

kyriee wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response to that problematic event seems like dealing with trauma and some of the words you use like “our society has become […] significantly more feminized” seem to indicate some of those issues are still unresolved. While I appreciate that you turned this into a positive, I don’t think violence and tough love is something we should promote, celebrate or even tolerate as a society. Here is a crazy thought: how…

My statement on the feminization of society doesn't come from trauma. Global testosterone levels have been dropping for decades[1]. You can see it in old pictures: men were less fat, more competitive, and happier. Rates of sex and relationships among men and young boys have dropped precipitously. Speaking anecdotally, I feel most fulfilled when I embrace my masculine side and focus it on positive pursuits. Competitio…

So then you'd be in favor of Universal Healthcare, subsidies for gym memberships for low income individuals, stricter regulations against lying/misleading in fast food/junk food, and stricter regulations/penalties for pollution?

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#213

Post by UncleMeat » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 4:01 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #182

devenblake wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happened in the United States as well (notoriously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlisle_Indian_Industrial_Sch... ). I was genuinely surprised to learn this in high school (for me, 2017-2021 or so) - not because it's not a notable event in US history but because I was surprised my history teacher was allowed to teach it.

You're surprised the US has free speech?

High school teachers are not given free reign to teach whatever they want. Even college professors are currently being threatened. See all of the rules being written about "CRT" being disallowed in curricula (not that the authors of these rules even understand what CRT is) or the mandatory ideological surveys of college professors in Florida.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#214

Post by ratsforhorses » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

erklik wrote: post #161

bregma wrote: post #144

In Canada our government ran a program like this for all indigenous people for over a century, the goal of which was to "take the Indian out of the child". The children would be taken, often forcefully, and maybe allowed home for a visit one a year maybe not. They were beaten if they spoke their own language or indulged in their own culture. Often abused, sometimes killed. The goal was total cultural annihilation, an…

Similar situation in Australia. They're called the Stolen Generations, children who were removed from their Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent parents by state agencies and church missions. This happened until the 70s. It's nuts how recent it is.

Same in Switzerland for gypsy kids till 1972...https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.liberation.fr/planete/1999/...

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#215

Post by amelius » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

ear7h wrote: post #11

If anyone's interested in a first hand account of this type of thing there's good webcomic: https://elan.school/ I haven't checked in a bit but I think he's still releasing new chapters.

Very good storytelling.

As an aside, I wonder how these students got their hair cuts.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#216

Post by dang » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

ascorbic wrote: post #109

dang wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. It destroys this place, and you can express concern for children without that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

This isn't nationalism, it's a reference to the laws in a particular country.

If you make shallow, pejorative generalizations about a country—any country—then you are adding nationalistic flamebait to the thread in the sense that we use the term here. Let's not argue about definitions; please just don't post such comments.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#217

Post by dang » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

ChrisKnott wrote: post #101

dang wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reminds me of Robyn Hitchcock's classic line about English boarding schools: "they fuck with your mind forever, then send you out to run the country".

Reminded me of Orwell's account of his education (Such, Such Were The Joys) which contains one of my favourite quotes ( "It was not only money that mattered: there were also strength, beauty, charm, athleticism and something called ‘guts’ or ‘character’, which in reality meant the power to impose your will on others." ). https://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/joys/english/e_joys

Orwell famously had a nostalgic view of his days at Eton. This doesn't much fit with the rest of his character and his great capacity not to be sentimental, but he was complicated.

Robyn Hitchcock's view of the school he was sent to (I think Winchester) is stark. He tells a story somewhere of not being allowed to leave the school to go to his grandmother's funeral, who was the one person he had really been close to. So he went to some kind of art happening organized by Brian Eno, of all people, and released a balloon with her name on it instead.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#218

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #72

agumonkey wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see Evergreen College has ancestry

Do tell?

> strip searches (administered by other kids)

evergreen has been flipped by students partly a few years ago so seeing chaotic school with involvement of youngster reminded me of it

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#219

Post by adrianN » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #136

adrianN wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, then we just need enforcement which is much simpler than new laws and also doesn't require lynch mobs.

"Lynch mob" in this case is people talking abput their own experiences.

People can talk about their own experience without "naming and shaming" other people.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#220

Post by rawgabbit » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #74

anm89 wrote: post #40

I went to one of these places when I was 13. Same thing, picked up in the middle of the night, and sent to a wilderness program that turned into 18 months of boarding school. The school was burnt down by the students a few years after I left and I got a couple thousand dollars in a class action lawsuit when it came out that they were hiring unlicensed therapists and admitting students who should have been in intensiv…

My reaction to these kinds of things (see also: the abuse of the Battle School students in Ender's Game ) is to think: (1) Perhaps it was the best way to teach certain things; but (2) I don't think the people who do such things usually rule out all the gentler methods first. It sounds like the "challenges" weren't necessarily intended to teach you what you learned, and you just happened to have a mind and mindset tha…

I didn’t like Ender’s Game and it’s portrayal of military boot camp. I had no idea what the training in Enders Game was about besides bullying and cruelty and very simplistic tactics.

I went through US military training in the early 90s. A lot of it was bullshit but the intent was clear to weed out those who cannot handle an incredible amount of stress while you get little sleep or rest. There was no physical or verbal abuse. The intent of the training was to get people to keep performing and getting along with your team while everyone suffered the artificial stress created by the instructors.