Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps • Hacker News Board

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#191

Post by aszantu » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

To me, trauma is when your gut tells you something is wrong but your ego/mind chooses to ignore it.

In this case it's impossible to think that you're not safe with your parents and then they hand you over to one of those camps.

In my own case, i've learned early that mum isn't safe and trusted dad more. Something was up, the body knew. When he split and didn't want me, that's when trauma occured.

I'm almost 40 now and only pulled my life together 2 years ago. Be honest with your kids. They can handle the truth, but never lies... it's okay to not love them, but lying about it... really sad.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#192

Post by jokethrowaway » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

brian_cunnie wrote: post #169

bjornsing wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I look back on it as one of the most valuable experiences in my life, not because there was any validity to the program but because it just confronted me with a lot of intense challenges at a young age that really developed my critical thinking and mindset at a young age. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Problem is, it does “kill”* some people. (*) Sometimes literally, but probably more often figuratively.

I asked a psychologist (Dr. Judith Bernstein) if it's true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and she answered unequivocally, "Trauma never makes you stronger." In a similar vein, with respect to "there are no atheists in foxholes", A three-tour-of-duty-in-Vietnam captain in the US Army (Harry McMenamin) said, "I was an atheist when I was in Vietnam, and I was in a lot of foxholes. There are atheists in f…

Not all challenges are trauma.

The problem is, it's hard to define where the line is - and the line is different for everyone.

That's why, I think it's important the people who need to go through that should know and decide they want to do it.

As a parent, I would never force my kids to go through that, unless they understand what it implies and they want to.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#193

Post by bitL » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #166

bitL wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I traveled around the world and spent some time in Brazil. Look e.g. at Rio de Janeiro - a small "city" with a few luxurious somewhat safe neighborhoods like Ipanema and Gavea, then a bit more seedy Copacabana, then a Maputo-style Centro, and all this surrounded by slums that take about 20x the size of the core Rio, including the famous "Zona Morte" a foreign tourist sees first when arriving via the international air…

...most of our planet feels like a hellhole... Donnie, is that you?

Did you even read what I wrote or was this just a cheap reaction from minimal pattern matching? One could describe state of hellhole as something to avoid and help others to escape it/change it. In your case you went with the "prevent anyone from there to reach my blessed state" interpretation, more consistent with the Donnie.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#194

Post by bjornsing » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

ganzuul wrote: post #179

bjornsing wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One guy, who I think was genuinely evil, took psychology as a minor subject. As an experiment, he decided to drive another, younger, vulnerable pupil mad. Gaslighting him, messing with his head, that kind of stuff. And he succeeded! I’ve seen grownups engage in this kind of abuse too. It’s incredibly disturbing, almost a legal (or very hard to prove) kind of homicide... But what can you do about it, other than try…

You don't have to prove it but you do have to stand up for the victim. Otherwise you enable the abuse. You would be surprised how often people react positively when you stand up for someone.

Sure, I did, and do. But it’s a surprisingly difficult social balancing act: if you go into specifics and try to prove / point out the abuse it’s very easy for the abuser to make you too look like a rambling madman.

I’m also chocked by how many do not stand up for the victim / truth, even when the abuser is clearly exposed as a lier many people (with social incentives to do so) will just say “well, I didn’t see that” or similar. A disturbing aspect of it is that I can’t tell if those people are consciously laying, or just in denial on a deeper psychological level... Scary shit.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#195

Post by anonymous39393 » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

This is tragic. What's so tough is that kids who are this troubled are in so much pain, and also cause immense pain to their families who feel helpless. My sister starting in early teens was intensely troubled (depression, drug abuse, self-destructive behavior, etc) and made my parents life very difficult. There was never a tough love camp, but I can understand the desire to try something, anything to place the kid somewhere out of harms way, both as a Hail Mary attempt to help them and to get some peace themselves. That these kids end up in harms way is the evil twist.

My sister, to this day, is intensely troubled. My parents, in their 70s, are raising her 7 year old. Immense amount of resources (time, love, medical care, psychological care, money) are spent every year helping her. Sometimes, there's just nothing that can "fix" these situations it's an ongoing process. My parents thankfully are well resourced in all the required ways to provide this level of support, and the siblings are onboard as well as this will continue past my parents time.

I guess I just think it's worth considering that there sometimes seems to be no real option in helping troubled kids / family members and it's a heartbreaking situation.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#196

Post by ohlookabird » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

ear7h wrote: post #11

If anyone's interested in a first hand account of this type of thing there's good webcomic: https://elan.school/ I haven't checked in a bit but I think he's still releasing new chapters.

Wow, thank you very much for this link! I had no idea and the comic presentation is fantastic. I couldn't stop reading and read it front to back. It's horrific what these kids had (and surely somewhere have) to endure without a chance of getting out. I hope that person is better now and that his work will help to continue to fight those practices, bring justice and raise awareness. (Like also others did in books and other forms of course!)

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#197

Post by orwin » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

the_only_law wrote: post #148

lordnacho wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But also, youth of today are incredibly soft, condescending and not ready to take responsibility for themselves. Where's the evidence for this?

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

Is this sarcasm?

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#198

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

kyriee wrote: post #172

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When growing up as a teenage male, there was a turning point in my mental development. I was sitting in class cracking jokes when this jerk kid stood up and punched me in the back of the head. I didn't know how to respond, so I just sat there. I was an out of shape kid who would have definitely lost. That event changed me. In the weeks and months ahead, anger and shame in my response led to a focused and intentional…

Your response to that problematic event seems like dealing with trauma and some of the words you use like “our society has become […] significantly more feminized” seem to indicate some of those issues are still unresolved. While I appreciate that you turned this into a positive, I don’t think violence and tough love is something we should promote, celebrate or even tolerate as a society. Here is a crazy thought: how…

My statement on the feminization of society doesn't come from trauma. Global testosterone levels have been dropping for decades[1]. You can see it in old pictures: men were less fat, more competitive, and happier. Rates of sex and relationships among men and young boys have dropped precipitously.

Speaking anecdotally, I feel most fulfilled when I embrace my masculine side and focus it on positive pursuits. Competition, pursuit of status, and power can all be good things if focused. This event unlocked that in me and helped me live a more fulfilled life I'm the long run.

In fact, your response is exactly what I'm talking about. Productive masculine behavior is shamed nowadays. That's sad to me.

[1] https://carraghermethod.com/the-hard-truth-for-men-declining...

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#199

Post by blindmute » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

brian_cunnie wrote: post #169

bjornsing wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I look back on it as one of the most valuable experiences in my life, not because there was any validity to the program but because it just confronted me with a lot of intense challenges at a young age that really developed my critical thinking and mindset at a young age. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Problem is, it does “kill”* some people. (*) Sometimes literally, but probably more often figuratively.

I asked a psychologist (Dr. Judith Bernstein) if it's true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and she answered unequivocally, "Trauma never makes you stronger." In a similar vein, with respect to "there are no atheists in foxholes", A three-tour-of-duty-in-Vietnam captain in the US Army (Harry McMenamin) said, "I was an atheist when I was in Vietnam, and I was in a lot of foxholes. There are atheists in f…

Trauma is like a sunburn. Adversity will give your brain a "tan", letting you handle worse adversity over time, but too much at once and it's trauma. The problem is that the kind of teens who go into these programs are often the equivalent of ghost pale, and get traumatized by even mild adversity.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#200

Post by the_only_law » Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

orwin wrote: post #197

the_only_law wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

Is this sarcasm?

A quote from Socrates, actually.