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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

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Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#161

Post by setpatchaddress »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #140
defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

Apple has increasingly delivered “looks good, feels bad” design since the Jobs era, and I suspect this is organizationally endemic.

This sort of thing is absolutely not new since the “Jobs era.”

Early Mac OS X had exactly these criticisms leveled at it, for years.

Also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushed_metal_(interface)

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#162

Post by Closi »

flohofwoe wrote: post #153
jhelphenstine wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S/UI/clothing; your argument suggests the move to add color to fabric doesn’t make sense because it is simply fashion and has aught to do with the interface presented by a shirt. I think the parent comment nails it on subjectivity; the form of a thing is as much a part as its function. The luxury goods industry attests as much.

A functional tool can still look nice, but the function is still more important than the looks, otherwise it's just useless bling (the fashion industry is the perfect example though, they need to sell new stuff each year without actually changing anything important, all they can really do is change pointless details).

A functional tool can look nice, but a tool designed with a “function only” mentality is very unlikely to look nice.

Good design is a balance of many factors.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#163

Post by snowwrestler »

grishka wrote: post #127
defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

A simple question. Why change something that already works for everyone? To solve which problem exactly? I understand redesigning UIs when that redesign affords you some new capabilities for new features you want to add. I don't, however, understand redesigns that just move things around without adding anything new. Android 12 is the prime example of this right now. Android 11, which I currently have on my phone, wor…

I have the opposite question: why do people let themselves get upset over UI changes? Why don’t people seem to take pride in their ability to adapt to change?

Change is inevitable. Even if we stipulate that change sometimes happens for bad reasons, like someone wanting a promotion, it’s not like bad reasons are suddenly going to disappear. People are still going to want promotions a year from now, or 10 years from now.

So designs are going to change. Why not take the approach of “let’s see how I can adapt to this”?

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#164

Post by flohofwoe »

Closi wrote: post #157
flohofwoe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UI changes are only good if they improve usability. By far most UI changes these days are only done for the sake of looking different and "fresh", UI design has become purely fashion driven. Where's the scientific research and white papers going along with the Safari UI changes which clearly justify point by point why every single change makes sense, all backed by user studies? All I usually see is "emotional bullshi…

> UI changes are only good if they improve usability. This is true only if usability is all you care about. In the real world people like things with good aesthetics, and like beautiful things, and it’s important for Apple to make things that users like. If looks didn’t matter every user interface and website would be plain and high-contrast.

A "plain and high-contrast" UI sounds like a good thing TBH.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#165

Post by lupinglade »

minxomat wrote: post #29
zer wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't attribute it to malice. The author has got that probably right: the people in charge think in iOS terms.

Ah yes iOS where refreshing a page now requires you to menu dive instead of having an always accessible button up top

On macOS too now, it’s beyond ridiculous.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#166

Post by barrkel »

rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

This is why tree-style tabs make sense. It puts the tabs on a sidebar, where their content can be read, and leaves maximum vertical space for the actual page content.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#167

Post by lupinglade »

cwizou wrote: post #121

I've been using Safari 15 on macOS and iOS since they released the betas and while I could get used to, and enjoyed some of the changes, some I don't think I'll be able to live with. From good to bad : - The tab grouping feature. I'm not sure I understand the complaining, as this is a purely optional feature that you don't have to use. Each new window you open will have it's own "group" that isn't shared anywhere, bu…

I’ve been using it every day since they released the beta as well and you are spot on.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#168

Post by flohofwoe »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #158
flohofwoe wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UI changes are only good if they improve usability. By far most UI changes these days are only done for the sake of looking different and "fresh", UI design has become purely fashion driven. Where's the scientific research and white papers going along with the Safari UI changes which clearly justify point by point why every single change makes sense, all backed by user studies? All I usually see is "emotional bullshi…

> Where's the scientific research and white papers going along with the Safari UI changes which clearly justify point by point why every single change makes sense, all backed by user studies? Are you being hyperbolic, or is this your actual position? That’s a ridiculously high bar that most organizations could not muster (and there’s no way Apple would release that stuff publicly anyway). “Emotional bullshit” is so n…

I'm dead serious. Almost every piece of software (and hardware) in a computer is driven by incremental improvements backed by research. Operating system kernels, file systems, databases, 3D-APIs, etc... there are tons of publications, white papers, discussions, all happening in public how those components are improved over the decades. There are dead ends from time to time, but those fail, and those failures are also discussed, analyzed and eventually replaced with better solutions.

Why are user interfaces special in this regard? Where's the research, where are the white papers which clearly demonstrate what the advantages and disadvantages of specific user interface philosophies are?

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#169

Post by hu3 »

jdmg94 wrote: post #128

I’ve been using iOS15 beta on my iDevices and tab groups has been a life-saver. If you had. 18 tabs open at any time like the author here said now you can separate them through tab groups that will sync in between devices, so I can have a group for my guitar tabs and a group for all my tech stuff, that leaves the default view clear if I want to start going into a new rabbit-hole

Tab groups are great. Chrome introduced them a while ago and I've been using ever since.

Two groups is all I need: Work and Personal. Tabs not in these groups are temporay and are closed once I'm done.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#170

Post by RulerOf »

defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

>I appreciate the aesthetics of chrome bleed

This one is a particularly bad idea. Regular people don't always understand the difference between the browser and the contents of a web page. This blurs that line even more for people who already have trouble seeing it in the first place.

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