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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

morrick.me

121–130 of 374 posts

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#121
I've been using Safari 15 on macOS and iOS since they released the betas and while I could get used to, and enjoyed some of the changes, some I don't think I'll be able to live with.

From good to bad :

- The tab grouping feature. I'm not sure I understand the complaining, as this is a purely optional feature that you don't have to use. Each new window you open will have it's own "group" that isn't shared anywhere, but you can, optionally, save tab groups that get synced across OSes. I find that to be very useful to make thematic groups and being able to switch from one to another easily on iPad, and having those groups opened on separate windows on mac.

- The sidebar is a bit clunky on iOS, for example if you want to browse your bookmarks through it, you'll have to go back to the root state of that tab (pressing back a few times) in order to be able to close it. Thankfully, that's not an issue on macOS ! Having multiple back buttons on screen though, I'm not certain that's a great design for novices, but you can argue it's more of a "power user" feature.

- Hiding the close button on a mouseover on the favicon on mac. Quite frankly this one was infuriating the first couple of days, but I did get over it. I do think it will be very jarring for most users though, and a very bad experience for not much reason. Even more puzzling is the fact that on iPad, since you can't mouseover, the close box is visible for the main tab, but not for the others, so closing a non selected tab is a two click process that brings back (or maybe reload) the tab, and that doesn't feel good.

- Hiding the reload button. As someone who don't always have my hands on the keyboard, I used that button fairly often on macOS. The touch target to the ... is also fairly small on iOS and I can't say I'm hitting it all the time. The menu that pops also has a peculiar design with some buttons being extra high, and a whole, massively scrollable list of features that are not in an order that particularly make sense to my usage. It's one of this case where you'd wish for some usage based learning as Microsoft tried to do years ago with Office.

- The Chrome tinting is something that kinda looks good sometimes, but gets visually jarring quickly. HN is a good example. I do like Orange, but that's just too much to my taste (that feature doesn't seem to be there on iPad). It can be disabled though in Preferences which is good.

- Moving around the location bar. That's the change I don't think I can get over, this has been terrible to use for me in practice. The fact that the bar changes width and location, I find visually and mentally jarring on mac. On iPad it's not much better, though at least you understand the premise there, it's about saving vertical space. Conceptually I can't get behind that one : they have voluntarily constrained their design to their smallest screen size, and did it mostly for cross OS consistency.

Right now you can revert the top bar using this gist on mac, and I thoroughly hope that Apple will consider making this optional, if only, under the guise of an accessibility preference : https://gist.github.com/zhuowei/8ad1dd478df0efeb67baf2088e5c...

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically what I tell people when they ask me why I put my start menu and task bar on the left side of the screen.

You don't hide the start menu and task bar?

A lot get frustrated with the slide but if you disable animations the autohide becomes instant too.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#123

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

This is basically what I tell people when they ask me why I put my start menu and task bar on the left side of the screen.

I find that horizontal space to many times be more constrained. If I toss and IDE and browser window side-by-side so I can code while looking at docs I need to at least close the vertical tabs on my browser to have a sane amount of space left for content. Usually also collapse one of the sidebars in the IDE to get a decent width for the code.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#124

Seems like the author is so used to the current design language, that they are vehemently opposed to any change. I personally like that Apple attempts to make websites feel more like applications by making the browser disappear. Websites have evolved to becoming essentially applications that can run on any platform. And with WASM this is only getting better. This is a great thing! Do applications have a permanent boo…

> I personally like that Apple attempts to make websites feel more like applications by making the browser disappear.

Now if they could provide a stable platform like they do for their applications versus the pain and edge cases Safari almost always introduces (especially the mobile implementations). I know its not a flashy thing but one WWDC it'd be great if they came out and said how many nearly decade old bugs have been addressed rather than a UI uplift - the cynic in me assumes a "redesigned" app is going to be less, not more stable.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the entire top bar area can be grabbed to drag the window around. Just click and hold anywhere that isn't a button or tab (including between and just below the tabs).

Ok, but the entire top row is now 90% buttons, tabs, and address-bar. Leaving me to struggle with the trackpad to position the mouse on a tiny sliver of border. Is there a keyboard modifier for move-mode?

There is, but it's disabled by default. Use

    defaults write -g NSWindowShouldDragOnGesture -bool true
Then restart, and now while holding Ctrl-⌘ you can click and drag _anywhere_ on the window to move it.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#126

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

UI changes are only good if they improve usability. By far most UI changes these days are only done for the sake of looking different and "fresh", UI design has become purely fashion driven. Where's the scientific research and white papers going along with the Safari UI changes which clearly justify point by point why every single change makes sense, all backed by user studies? All I usually see is "emotional bullshit", not rational facts when UI designers talk about their work.

This used to be different during the 80's and 90's and I'm convinced that this change (turning UI design from science/engineering into fashion) is why we are deep in a UX crisis.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#127

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

A simple question. Why change something that already works for everyone? To solve which problem exactly?

I understand redesigning UIs when that redesign affords you some new capabilities for new features you want to add. I don't, however, understand redesigns that just move things around without adding anything new.

Android 12 is the prime example of this right now. Android 11, which I currently have on my phone, works fine. Its UI is well thought out. It's mature enough. The best thing you could do to it is leave it alone. But then someone at Google wanted a promotion, which meant redesigning an existing product, and now everything is opaque and has huge paddings for no good reason. And when they say "material you is customizable", I really hope it's so customizable I could just make it look like it did before they released this mess.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#128
I’ve been using iOS15 beta on my iDevices and tab groups has been a life-saver. If you had. 18 tabs open at any time like the author here said now you can separate them through tab groups that will sync in between devices, so I can have a group for my guitar tabs and a group for all my tech stuff, that leaves the default view clear if I want to start going into a new rabbit-hole

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#129

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

Right, everyone had the exactly opposite complaint about Firefox.

Safari 15's design is so odd I'll have no idea what to make of it until I can actually test it out.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#130
post #9

I’ve said this before on HN, but as a reminder the following are all verifiable facts: there is no dedicated macOS team anymore, Apple market iPads as a superior alternative to a laptop, and macOS as a percentage of revenue has over a long period dwindled in favour of iOS (with a few minor blips along the way). A reasonable conclusion is that macOS isn’t apple’s priority. Meanwhile with WSL and Terminal Microsoft is…

The MacPorts project has existed for 7 years longer than Homebrew, and is a much more sane experience similar to FreeBSD ports. In fact, Jordan Hubbard, the co-founder of FreeBSD and the original author of FreeBSD ports, was involved in the MacPorts project (along with other Apple employees). I’m always baffled that Homebrew is seen as the standard macOS package manager. MacPorts has existed for many more years. It b…

I tried MacPorts back in the day and royally screwed up my computer and couldn’t figure out how to fix it. Iirc, homebrew symlinking prevents what happened to me.

However, I’ve learned a lot since that time, so perhaps macports would work just fine for me now.

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