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State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

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Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#71

Post by [deleted] »

cookie_monsta wrote: post #64
cookiengineer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we also talk about inconsistencies when it comes to notifications on Windows 10, too, please? I mean, every app does whatever it wants. An update popup here, a warning there. Some blocking window with full attention here, some imutable "you got a message" there. Anti-virus systray icons even render webpages as popups, that contain even more notifications inside them. Windows is the worst OS I've ever used in rega…

Does it not help to turn the notifications off in the notifications settings?

[deleted]

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#72

Post by robertlagrant »

code_duck wrote: post #61
vsskanth wrote: post #9

How is MacOS able to maintain such a consistent UI even with massive changes in their design language ? Is Windows UI not a separate layer or something that they can update ? Or is it that the UI elements somehow get baked into the program at the time you build it, so if you didn't update you are just stuck with that particular version of UI you built the program ?

That’s what I wonder… understood that the windows internals are developed to maintain backwards compatibility, but why are they not able to change the user interface? The Vista control panel being the second layer of the Windows 10 control panel is one of the weirdest. Other than maintaining the same layout for users, why is the second layer of their settings panel just the exact settings panel from the OS 14 years a…

This. It's not about backwards compatibility for Windows itself; it's about investment. They don't want to pay to update all their menus and settings screens.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#73

Post by Solocomplex »

meowkit wrote: post #45
neelc wrote: post #36

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but not on Windows (and I deal with a SaaS at MSFT). I am a FreeBSD committer and help maintain FreeBSD's GNOME packages and (very recently) the graphics drivers. The reason why Windows is full of UI inconsistencies is (largely) because of one thing: backwards compatibility. While backwards compatibility has it's perks, it also means having lots of old code in Windows that can't be to…

I work on the core OS. This is the answer. Now it could be done to maintain backwards compat and have everything completely up to date, but the juice is not worth the squeeze and there are more important things to focus on (such as making the OS work/build in such a way that there won’t be inconsistencies in the future).

They tried modernizing with Windows RT, which was actually very smooth and functional if it wasn't so locked down.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#74

Post by Stratoscope »

cryptoz wrote: post #33
elktea wrote: post #12

speaking of UI inconsistencies - why did the author of this page thing it was a good idea to hijack my page up/down buttons. come on man.

I really disliked the experience of trying to read that page so much I just chose not to read it. What a surprisingly awful experience - I'd really encourage the author to remove that.

Not just a terrible idea, but it was completely unnecessary. The highjacked PgUp/Dn keys scroll the screenshot galleries horizontally, but so do the left and right arrow keys just like in other image galleries.

It did remind me to try a pair of browser shortcuts that I haven't used in probably ten years: Space and Shift+Space. They work!

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#75

Post by numpad0 »

curiousmindz wrote: post #14

This issue is way overblown here on HN. In day-to-day usage, I have rarely been annoyed by these "inconsistencies". The best example to illustrate this article is: Installing a driver with the Windows XP layer. That's probably something that will only happen to people installing very old hardware with drivers from over 10 years ago. I consider that a backward compatibility win: It is great that it even works in Windo…

Isn’t it interesting that the inconsistency arguments mostly surfaces around software configuration, like “_Settings_ app is stupid” “I still use XP style _driver installation_ screen” etc?

It makes sense why it’s not much of an issue on other GUI environments: in GNU/Linux and macOS, only what’s available on GUI is available on GUI, and the rest goes to the unified scary black screen with very task specific procedures.

Only in Windows the GUI is primary means of configuration and only Windows carry over old GUI associated with each configuration items.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#76

Post by vladvasiliu »

aasasd wrote: post #55
siproprio wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about me? I don't care about backwards compatibility - but I don't want "UWP" because it's impossible to make great apps following the guidelines.

Sounds like you might want to look into MacOS. Or at least might've wanted before Big Sur, dunno about now.

Yeah, macOS jumping on the "huge UI elements with tons of empty space" bandwagon was the proverbial straw for me that moved my beloved MBP from daily workhorse to random idle browsing machine.

I'd say it's still not as bad as Windows, in that at least it's not pure white that burns your eyes, but I still hate how half of my laptop screen is taken up by useless UI elements.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#77

Post by ksec »

jorvi wrote: post #48
neelc wrote: post #36

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but not on Windows (and I deal with a SaaS at MSFT). I am a FreeBSD committer and help maintain FreeBSD's GNOME packages and (very recently) the graphics drivers. The reason why Windows is full of UI inconsistencies is (largely) because of one thing: backwards compatibility. While backwards compatibility has it's perks, it also means having lots of old code in Windows that can't be to…

I don't know if Apple deserves to be in that list, UI-wise at least. Yes, they do break backwards compatibility in many many other ways, but you could put a technical layperson who is used to Mac OS 9 and put them on macOS 11.4 (for those unfamiliar, Apple's OS has been at 10.x for about 20 years) and they would still reasonably be able to find their way around. One element especially (the global menu bar) is why I g…

Yes. There are so many things Mac got it right for parents or grand parent users. Global Menu Bar and Single Mouse Button.

But generally speaking for them it was still a hassle and hurt to use a computer. iPad with Home Button was so much easier. No support calls for years. It was the computing devices that works. But now they moved on to Smartphone meant iPad get way less usage.

Which also means some of those design decisions that make macOS easier to use might not be relevant as PC transfer to a more professional type usage rather than consumer / everyone computing devices. But even in that case I still think Global Menu Bar is a better design.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#78

Post by pjmlp »

ridiculous_fish wrote: post #63
Someone wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any program tweaks a dialog, say by floating a title-barless window with a new control on top of some empty space (possibly after slightly resizing the window or a control in the window to make space), you can’t resize any window control, can’t change tab order, can’t add controls, can’t change background color, etc. Detecting whether that is being done is challenging. Typical workaround is that, if any callback i…

Wow! There really are programs which plug into dialogs in this way? Well, that's a new level of compatibility hell. Thanks for the answer.

Yes, Windows is a kind of OOP based OS at its "kernel" (not to mix with OS kernel).

So one way to extend UI components, since its inception, is to request the Windowsclass structure of an existing control, replace its event handler function and then call the "base class" handler for the built in behavior.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#79

Post by ksec »

neelc wrote: post #36

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but not on Windows (and I deal with a SaaS at MSFT). I am a FreeBSD committer and help maintain FreeBSD's GNOME packages and (very recently) the graphics drivers. The reason why Windows is full of UI inconsistencies is (largely) because of one thing: backwards compatibility. While backwards compatibility has it's perks, it also means having lots of old code in Windows that can't be to…

Well I thought Windows on ARM or Windows 10X was the perfect moment to get rid of those backward compatibility problem. At least there are incentive / reasons to be doing so.

And why can Microsoft goes the same route as Apple's Cocoa and Carbon?

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#80

Post by Sebb767 »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #47
overgard wrote: post #29

The only consistency issue that really has bothered me is the constant mauling of the control panel. Windows 95 basically got it right, and every major release they just hide things further and further. And now the competing "Settings" thing is just an embarrassment. So now we have two competing ways of configuring the system, except the new one sucks and is incomplete, and the old one is kinda unmaintained.

TBH I don't really see how the Settings app is an embarrassment at this point in time. This was definitely true in Windows 8 and early Windows 10 versions, but with the leaps and bounds it's made since, I feel like 'settings app suxx' is a meme that has overstayed its welcome.

I do not have much to do with windows these days, but if you try to cange advanced network interface settings or audio settings beyond selecting a single input, you stil need to find the link to the old panel hidden somewhere. Also, good luck changing WiFi settings from the fluid menu.

And lastly, while it always stays responsive, control of the background processes is also lacking. I spent quite some time restarting the download of a system language, just because I started it while having DNS issues (and to fix those... see above).

I personally don't mind the older designs being mixed in, especially since most of them look good enough with the updated buttons, but the settings panel is, in its current state, still a sidegrade at best.

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