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State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

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Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#61

Post by code_duck »

vsskanth wrote: post #9

How is MacOS able to maintain such a consistent UI even with massive changes in their design language ? Is Windows UI not a separate layer or something that they can update ? Or is it that the UI elements somehow get baked into the program at the time you build it, so if you didn't update you are just stuck with that particular version of UI you built the program ?

That’s what I wonder… understood that the windows internals are developed to maintain backwards compatibility, but why are they not able to change the user interface?

The Vista control panel being the second layer of the Windows 10 control panel is one of the weirdest. Other than maintaining the same layout for users, why is the second layer of their settings panel just the exact settings panel from the OS 14 years ago?

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#62

Post by code_duck »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #15
vsskanth wrote: post #9

How is MacOS able to maintain such a consistent UI even with massive changes in their design language ? Is Windows UI not a separate layer or something that they can update ? Or is it that the UI elements somehow get baked into the program at the time you build it, so if you didn't update you are just stuck with that particular version of UI you built the program ?

The biggest thing is that a much larger percentage of Mac apps are written using the native UI toolkits, which receive most of the aesthetic changes for "free" (even in lieu of updates/recompiles). There's also stronger expectation from users for apps to fit in, so even devs who write in foreign toolkits (e.g. electron) are more likely to put in the effort to mimic the native toolkit, because failure to do so makes t…

But the programs we are discussing here are parts of windows written by Microsoft with their own toolkits.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#63

Post by ridiculous_fish »

Someone wrote: post #54
ridiculous_fish wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the backwards compatibility case for APIs, but not for OS dialogs. Is there a compatibility reason why the folder properties dialog is crufty (unresizable, etc)? I always just assumed there was no engineering appetite or business case to work on it.

If any program tweaks a dialog, say by floating a title-barless window with a new control on top of some empty space (possibly after slightly resizing the window or a control in the window to make space), you can’t resize any window control, can’t change tab order, can’t add controls, can’t change background color, etc. Detecting whether that is being done is challenging. Typical workaround is that, if any callback i…

Wow! There really are programs which plug into dialogs in this way? Well, that's a new level of compatibility hell. Thanks for the answer.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#64

Post by cookie_monsta »

cookiengineer wrote: post #30
causality0 wrote: post #17

I don't think Microsoft has been truly interested in improving the Windows experience in a long time. I mean, surely if they cared about us you'd be able to right-click on any Notification icon and hit "always show icon and notifications" without having to open two menus to get to that option. It's been a pain in my ass for twenty years.

Can we also talk about inconsistencies when it comes to notifications on Windows 10, too, please? I mean, every app does whatever it wants. An update popup here, a warning there. Some blocking window with full attention here, some imutable "you got a message" there. Anti-virus systray icons even render webpages as popups, that contain even more notifications inside them. Windows is the worst OS I've ever used in rega…

Does it not help to turn the notifications off in the notifications settings?

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#65

Post by kitsunesoba »

jorvi wrote: post #48
neelc wrote: post #36

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but not on Windows (and I deal with a SaaS at MSFT). I am a FreeBSD committer and help maintain FreeBSD's GNOME packages and (very recently) the graphics drivers. The reason why Windows is full of UI inconsistencies is (largely) because of one thing: backwards compatibility. While backwards compatibility has it's perks, it also means having lots of old code in Windows that can't be to…

I don't know if Apple deserves to be in that list, UI-wise at least. Yes, they do break backwards compatibility in many many other ways, but you could put a technical layperson who is used to Mac OS 9 and put them on macOS 11.4 (for those unfamiliar, Apple's OS has been at 10.x for about 20 years) and they would still reasonably be able to find their way around. One element especially (the global menu bar) is why I g…

I think global menubars are severely underrated. They act as a sort of index of any given program's functionality, complete with key shortcuts and because it's a facet of the OS itself and will be there regardless, there's no point in paring away menus for minimalism's sake.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#66

Post by freeone3000 »

aasasd wrote: post #28
trnglina wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Built-in Windows controls, like buttons, scroll bars, etc. are updated with each system release. However, they are relatively inflexible, and no one uses WinApi anyway, so most frameworks and apps build their own components, with varying dedication to emulating the "native" style. Built-in controls also don't perform much in the way of layout (I believe the only way to position child HWNDs remains manual absolute pos…

> I believe the only way to position child HWNDs remains manual absolute positions? so while your button might look native, your collection of two buttons won't. I thought the native APIs provided some kinds of constraints, like ‘these go into corners, and this is next to that’? Such approach is sorta necessary when windows can be resized. And I thought that UI builders like Visual Basic depended on these constraints…

Which is the "native" API - win32, MFC/ATL, Form builder, WPF, or MAUI? If you're dealing with HWNDs directly, it's either win32 or MFC/ATL, but those haven't been touched in tens of years in favor of the current .NET APIs.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#67

Post by rbreaves »

flyingchipmann wrote: post #51
jorvi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if Apple deserves to be in that list, UI-wise at least. Yes, they do break backwards compatibility in many many other ways, but you could put a technical layperson who is used to Mac OS 9 and put them on macOS 11.4 (for those unfamiliar, Apple's OS has been at 10.x for about 20 years) and they would still reasonably be able to find their way around. One element especially (the global menu bar) is why I g…

The worst part about the new gnome not only we don't have the global menu bar, the default top bar is basically a waste of space with barely any useful content in it.

That’s why I just use Just Perfection extension & remove the top bar. Then you just run budgie-panel or xfce4-panel w/ vala appmenu for the global menu bar on Gnome. Use xfce4 if you need it on 2 or more monitors though - Budgie only supports 1.

Better than KDE imo - you keep sane defaults, simpler configs, & consistent themes.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#68

Post by creshal »

ridiculous_fish wrote: post #63
Someone wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any program tweaks a dialog, say by floating a title-barless window with a new control on top of some empty space (possibly after slightly resizing the window or a control in the window to make space), you can’t resize any window control, can’t change tab order, can’t add controls, can’t change background color, etc. Detecting whether that is being done is challenging. Typical workaround is that, if any callback i…

Wow! There really are programs which plug into dialogs in this way? Well, that's a new level of compatibility hell. Thanks for the answer.

Look at Autohotkey for a starter down the rabbit hole of "we don't need APIs, we have a GUI!" and the fallout of people desperately working around it.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#69

Post by tomc1985 »

ridiculous_fish wrote: post #63
Someone wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If any program tweaks a dialog, say by floating a title-barless window with a new control on top of some empty space (possibly after slightly resizing the window or a control in the window to make space), you can’t resize any window control, can’t change tab order, can’t add controls, can’t change background color, etc. Detecting whether that is being done is challenging. Typical workaround is that, if any callback i…

Wow! There really are programs which plug into dialogs in this way? Well, that's a new level of compatibility hell. Thanks for the answer.

In the days before heavy security it was quite possible for programs to monkey around with other programs' UI in all sorts of way. A lot of that is still possible from an administrator or SYSTEM-privileged context. Some 15 years ago I wrote an Internet Explorer addon that added stuff to the statusbar by hooking into the IE window's message pump and intercepting winforms calls. Shit was wild.

Growing up in the 90s, I remember an article in Visual Basic Programmer's Journal teaching subclassing in VB by hooking into Notepad and adding a font picker (via a new menu entry that opens the font dialog) to change the text control's typeface. (This was long before MS added that same feature)

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#70

Post by vladvasiliu »

ridiculous_fish wrote: post #46
neelc wrote: post #36

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but not on Windows (and I deal with a SaaS at MSFT). I am a FreeBSD committer and help maintain FreeBSD's GNOME packages and (very recently) the graphics drivers. The reason why Windows is full of UI inconsistencies is (largely) because of one thing: backwards compatibility. While backwards compatibility has it's perks, it also means having lots of old code in Windows that can't be to…

I understand the backwards compatibility case for APIs, but not for OS dialogs. Is there a compatibility reason why the folder properties dialog is crufty (unresizable, etc)? I always just assumed there was no engineering appetite or business case to work on it.

Non-resizable dialogs are one of the top reasons why I cannot stand Windows and find it a huge pain to work with as a non-regular user.

Now, while I can understand the sibling's point about third-party overlays [0] which may break when the windows suddenly become resizable, what I find absolutely infuriating is that even what seem like recent features still inherit this stupid behavior.

The thing that I'm reminded of is "Windows Defender Exceptions" (or similar, don't have a Windows box at hand). Those are configured through a new, Settings App-looking window.

Now I understand this is somehow different, because even though the window vaguely looks like the Settings App (huge icons, tons and tons of whitespace), it behaves very differently.

This "exceptions" panel shows a list of the folders that is fixed, although the outer window can be resized. So if you've got a big high-res screen and maximize it, you'll get 90% of blank space and will still have to scroll around to see the contents. Bonus points for the list being so skinny that I'm only able to see "C:\Users\vlad\..." and have to click on each entry to see it in full.

I sometimes jokingly say that it shows MS has a mouse business, and having to click a thousand times for the simplest of things is by design.

---

[0] Not sure what those are. Do random third-parties "augment" system dialogs by drawing random stuff on top of them? I find that thought horrendous.

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