Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life • Hacker News Board

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#571

Post by bstar77 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:40 PM UTC

dron57 wrote: post #433

bstar77 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much what I came to say. Both of my parents came from very poor families, but they both valued education very highly. My brother and I may as well been born into a wealthy family since we both got every educational resource we needed, but up until I was 10 years old my parents had to make huge sacrifices to achieve that. In these poor communities I'm seeing a tendency to stigmatize education... that's…

> The educational resources available to anyone today obliterates what we had in the 80's. Do you mean the materials available online? There's definitely lots of great material online, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that schools and universities have gotten any better (despite becoming much more expensive).

I'm referring to things like "Nicole the Math Lady", "Kahn Academy" and other supplemental education resources. Even Wikipedia can get you on the right track with any topic. Since I homeschool my son I don't know if the schools have gotten better.

I took an accelerated Calculus class one summer. My parents spent hundreds of dollars on a VHS calculus set to supplement the class because it was moving too fast for me. That was the difference maker in me passing. Today, getting that info is trivial and available to everyone.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#572

Post by gjulianm » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

CountDrewku wrote: post #481

gjulianm wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That statistic, by itself, is meaningless. Immigrants have almost double the poverty rate of US natives too. The point of the parent is not to say "you can't do anything to improve" but that, in general, starting conditions are the major factor deciding how much you can improve. Someone born in a poor family with hard access to education will need to work much more than others born in rich families to reach the same…

>That statistic, by itself, is meaningless. Immigrants have almost double the poverty rate of US natives too. Most immigrants come to America desiring to improve their circumstances from what they dealt with in their home countries. This means they're coming in at a much lower standard than people who've been in the US their whole life. This would explain why they have a higher rate of poverty. It has nothing to do w…

> This would explain why they have a higher rate of poverty. It has nothing to do with America being uniquely bad at helping immigrants improve their lives.

My point is not regarding that, just that the amount of business owners does not help too much in seeing whether they do harder work than others or not.

> Exactly what are immigrants not allowed that citizens born in the US are?

Citizenship? Permanent residence? Seems like a pretty big deal to me.

> At some point in the past every one of those rich families had an individual who did something to achieve more than the average person.

That something could be anything, from working really hard to just being lucky. Not to mention that a lot of individuals probably did the same personal effort but circumstances were not optimal for that effort to do something.

> So, if you don't like it then it would seem that you're suggesting we just allow immigrants (or low class) people to skip that by giving them things?

Yes. Education, healthcare, the basics so that they live and work without worrying constantly about survival.

> Now, that would mean that everyone gets raised up to a similar level again and we're back in the same position where all the average people feel they're not being treated fairly because they don't have what upper class people have.

This is a very simplistic take of wealth redistribution. The purpose of redistributive policies is not to take everything (houses, money, material things), put it in a pile and then give to everyone the same thing. There will always be people better and worse off. The idea of redistribution is to reduce the distance between those groups, so that

- People that are worse off have a minimum life quality. Even from an utilitarian point of view it makes sense: a homeless person, or someone who's starving, is not going to contribute as much to society as if they had a home.

- People that are better off still need to contribute to society and don't have power over it. Meaning worker protections, and also heavier taxes on non-productive capitalistic activities.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#573

Post by bstar77 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #394

bstar77 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much what I came to say. Both of my parents came from very poor families, but they both valued education very highly. My brother and I may as well been born into a wealthy family since we both got every educational resource we needed, but up until I was 10 years old my parents had to make huge sacrifices to achieve that. In these poor communities I'm seeing a tendency to stigmatize education... that's…

> You don't need to be an elite to have access to the critical material, you just need the desire to pursue it. For most children and teenagers, this desire is at least partly a function of one’s peers. Hence the premium placed on houses in certain school districts or neighborhoods.

That's pretty much the point I was making. The whole community has to buy into the value of education. If you are getting harassed by your peers because you are reading a book for enjoyment, you are likely going to stop.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#574

Post by caconym_ » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:44 PM UTC

geggam wrote: post #528

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Sort of curious, What lifestyle are people entitled to ? What effort are they responsible for putting forth to better their life ? Who is responsible for ensuring they have a good life ?

As a matter of physical reality, the universe owes us nothing. It was quite content to allow such things as the Atlantic slave trade and the Holocaust, which took people’s lives completely out of their own hands and utterly destroyed them. Were those people “entitled” to better? The question is, I think, utterly meaningless. Were these morally abhorrent events that should never be repeated? From my own moral point of view, and that of many other people, absolutely.

The effort of changing society to give more people more opportunity is generally undertaken on a moral basis alone. If you aren’t convinced by the premise, asking leading moral questions as if they have objective answers isn’t going to tell you anything you don’t already “know”, and it also isn’t going to provoke any kind of useful discussion around how we might implement real policies to this effect.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#575

Post by throwaway894345 » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

52-6F-62 wrote: post #556

throwaway894345 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It sounded like an intuition rather than a conclusion. Fair enough. > It’s an intuition that’s very familiar to those born without a leg up. I was born to a blue collar family and I lived in a trailer until I was 6. I don't share the intuition. I worked through college while my classmates skipped class, spent loads at starbucks, restaurants, etc. I double majored and graduated with a fraction of the debt of my peer…

If you lack the intuition, it might not be because it doesn't exist. It might be because you were not so intuitive, at least about the nature of the people around you. I don't mean that to sound negative, some people have good fortune with their intuitive sense in the same way some have good fortune to make all the "right" choices at the right time. It sounds like you made it through some trying circumstances. Good o…

No worries. Maybe it’s luck, or maybe it’s mindset. Maybe the messaging (from the press or even from one’s own community) that life is hard, that only the exceptional few escape their circumstances, etc becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I think it’s somewhere in the middle, and America needs to make some reforms so we don’t have billionaires and abject poverty at once; however, I don’t think the media narrative is helping.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#576

Post by ceilingcorner » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

apercu wrote: post #555

ceilingcorner wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things that are social “musts” today were “wants” 30 years ago. Smart phones, unlimited data, eating out 3-4 times a week, Uber Eats delivery. None of this is necessary in order to survive, but not indulging is seen as odd or socially awkward.

But how is that any different than saying in 1918 a car was a want but in 1950 a car was a requirement for many people? I suspect that the answer to these types of questions is that most people don't want to admit how mind-fucked we all are in to believing the bullshit that we are inundated with from the most powerful classes and how little freedom and financial mobility exists in the USA.

I’m not sure how requiring a car (because you need to drive to work) is equivalent to owning the latest hot gadget or having food delivered to you on demand.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#577

Post by colanderman » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

h2odragon wrote: post #512

colanderman wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a relatively safe neighborhood and have no confidence $20 left taped to a trash can on the curb would survive the night. I guess one could tape it inside the lid? Even that wouldn't survive the night in grittier neighborhoods.

My wife said much the same thing; and we're so rural no one actually drives past our trash cans but us. We put ours out a couple hours before they come by; can't leave trash by the road overnight cuz the coyotes will scatter it all over. Civil society vanished quick, apparently. I once knew the kind of people who would steal cars or anything else because they could; and those people would've found the notion of steal…

To be fair, I haven't experimented with leaving clearly marked cash on the sidewalk to discern whether the local thieves' code condones tip-stealing or not. (This is a Boston suburb innervated by public transit, so there's plenty of foot traffic.)

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#578

Post by ceilingcorner » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

apercu wrote: post #561

ceilingcorner wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big difference between a 5 year old $50 Android smartphone and the latest $800 iPhone. I know a lot of people who own the latter yet claim to struggle financially.

If you are struggling financially who cares if you are paying an extra $10 a month to rent-to-own an $800 phone? That sort of shit is just more judgemental dog whistling.

Everything that you don’t agree with isn’t “judgmental dog whistling.”

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#579

Post by theflyinghorse » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #255

corry wrote: post #165

As trite as it sounds, "Success = Hard Work + Opportunity" is still the default equation that makes the most sense to me. And while people from all strata of life work very hard, opportunities are obviously and incredibly unequally distributed (and perhaps becoming more so?). If you were born middle-class in US/Canada 20 - 40 years ago, your access to opportunities to improve your station were/are immense. Layer on y…

I propose Success = Hard Work * Opportunity^2. That is to say that hard work without opportunity equals nothing and opportunity without work equals nothing. But work and opportunity do not have a linear relationship, a bit more opportunity can greatly leverage a bit of extra work. Big opportunities practically become self-fulfilling. Just look at all the poor students who became president. Their lack of work in schoo…

> Success = Hard Work * Opportunity^2

So many stories and personal examples of parents pushing their kids into good positions without kids having to do any work at all. Or just friends pulling friends in their firms into cushy positions. No hard work in sight but pure opportunity.

Opportunity is the prerequisite for success, not hard work.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#580

Post by throwaway0a5e » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

ewmiller wrote: post #370

bluGill wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen those reports myself. However they don't note anything about the entire class changing. Today even the lowest cast things nothing about having an entire encyclopedia in their pocket (a smart phone), 40 years ago encyclopedias were something you needed to be middle class to have one in your house, and nobody could have them in a pocket (meaning you both could afford one, and the space to store it at home) Go…

I can't help but read this as a kind of "let them eat cake" argument. Sure, some cars have electric starters now... how does that matter? Plenty of poor, working class people do not own cars. They're getting priced out of the cities they've lived in their whole lives. Working class wages have been stagnant for decades. Healthcare and education costs have risen much faster than inflation. A huge percentage of American…

Look at the kinds of projects apartments and leaky rural shacks the poor of the 50s-70s lived in. You might have to combine five to get what we today consider one working set of appliances and utilities.

Section 8 apartments and double wides are such a massive step up from that. There will always be a bottom of the economic latter. But that bottom has moved up a lot over the past couple generations.

Mobility is a somewhat separate topic from what standard of living constitutes the bottom.