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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#311

Post by bluedino »

What is working hard? Putting long hours in at your dead-end job may be hard work, but is not working hard.

Working hard is doing things outside of work in order to create opportunities. School, networking, learning. Working hard is sacrificing by saving your money, not blowing it. Making good choices. Hanging around positive people.

Working hard is also being honest and not making excuses. I have a young child and use that as an excuse for not going back to college. Plenty of people finish their degree and have more kids at home than I do. I just don’t prioritize it as much. So I don’t have a right to complain when I get rejected from a job for not having a degree. I have had twenty years to get one, instead I chose to do other things.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#312

Post by throwkeep »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #217
paulluuk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

A lot of things that are social “musts” today were “wants” 30 years ago. Smart phones, unlimited data, eating out 3-4 times a week, Uber Eats delivery. None of this is necessary in order to survive, but not indulging is seen as odd or socially awkward.

Also living space per person has nearly doubled since the 70s.

https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-s...

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#313

Post by vorpalhex »

apercu wrote: post #224
datapls wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

Did you and I grow up in the same country? The entire puritan work effort is based on this premise in some way or another. The more religious you are the more you appear to believe your wealth is a god-given right and that everyone else is a lazy no-gooder trying to steal the fruits of your hard work.

Puritanism typically holds that work is required, both historically and with the remnants we might see in more conservative protestants. Love of wealth - and particularly displays of wealth - would be failures of modesty and humility which are core values. Simply having wealth, especially wealth not shown but used for charity, would be considered a result of hard work.

The puritans didn't wear drab clothes because they lacked decent dyes, they wore them as an element of modesty.

Alms to the poor was not considered a bad thing, it was religiously required, especially when used to evangelize.

[1] - https://www.apuritansmind.com/stewardship/rykenlelandpuritan...

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#314

Post by bluGill »

Jenk wrote: post #215
paul_f wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better comparison would be the price per square foot. The median rent today buys a MUCH larger (and nicer) house than it did in 1968. The average house in the US has increased by 1,000 square feet in the last 50 years. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-s...

It's a comparison, but I wouldn't say a better one. You can't just rent a fraction of a property without sharing it with someone else, so the comparison is "What does it cost to get a place of your own in 1968 vs today?" and the answer is you either rent today's bigger but more expensive property, or don't - even if you could afford a 1968 property today.

As Adam Smith observed, when people get more income it almost always goes to better places to live. Better can be more space, better location, or more luxury in the space.

You can still find apartments built in the 1950s that are functional (places where the maintenance was done so they are essentially just as good as 70 years ago) and the rent is cheap. Most people want better.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#315

Post by hallway_monitor »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #217
paulluuk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

A lot of things that are social “musts” today were “wants” 30 years ago. Smart phones, unlimited data, eating out 3-4 times a week, Uber Eats delivery. None of this is necessary in order to survive, but not indulging is seen as odd or socially awkward.

Or even worse, poor. These are honestly very decadent habits and the majority of people can't afford them.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#316

Post by bwh2 »

datapls wrote: post #128
52-6F-62 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe yo…

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

There's a good book called Moral Politics which covers this topic in depth.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#317

Post by gjulianm »

nexus_dave wrote: post #103
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

In 2019, immigrant entrepreneurs made up 21.7 percent of all business owners in the United States, despite making up just over 13.6 percent of the population and 17.1 percent of the U.S. labor force. As an immigrant I can assure you that my starting position was not that great. It is super sad to see the west being turned into an epicurean type world.

That statistic, by itself, is meaningless. Immigrants have almost double the poverty rate of US natives too.

The point of the parent is not to say "you can't do anything to improve" but that, in general, starting conditions are the major factor deciding how much you can improve. Someone born in a poor family with hard access to education will need to work much more than others born in rich families to reach the same point. Maybe instead of saying "just work hard" to everyone we should also focus on those inequalities so people have the same opportunities to work hard and improve themselves.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#318

Post by fullstop »

caf wrote: post #281
fullstop wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side there are plenty of examples of kids being pushed into higher education who would have been much better off going to a trade school. Working as a plumber, an electrician, or a carpenter can be quite lucrative, and they are certainly things that society needs. Being pushed into higher ed is so much different than having an internal drive to do it. I'm glad that she's doing well and hopefully they can…

Working as a plumber, an electrician, or a carpenter can be quite lucrative, and they are certainly things that society needs. I hear this kind of thing, but I have to say it is less than convincing when most of the people saying it don't seem to be sending their kids to trade school.

I have family in all of those professions. They're doing fine financially-- some of their kids went to college and some of them continued with the trade.

The biggest difference is the ebb and flow of available work. There were some months which were good, _really_ good, and others which were quite lean. Because of this, budgeting was an important skill to have.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#319

Post by vharuck »

lettergram wrote: post #145
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

I think we need more studies and evidence to create meaningful predictions. Now, I’m going to remove any moral or emotional thoughts for a moment. Sure there may be a correlation between wealth and future success, but hasn’t that always been the case - it’s a fact of nature. The most successful genes are able to procreate leading to success. What we did is say “all humans need to have the same vindication’s” and ensu…

Appeals to "survival of the fittest" piss me off, because they necessarily give up on the idea of improving society. I don't want to replace my ethics and hopes for the world with a barbaric version of pre-history. As a person who wouldn't be alive without corrective glasses and modern medicine, who also considers himself fairly productive, I'm might be a bit biased.

Besides, if you really want the end result of human nature, you'd just get what we have today. Humans are, overall, compassionate for fellow humans. It's why we tend to the sick. Hell, our compassionate nature is so strong we sympathize with sick or disabled animals.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#320

Post by pnutjam »

datapls wrote: post #128
52-6F-62 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe yo…

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Calvinism

Reformed Christians believe that God predestined some people to be saved and others were predestined to eternal damnation

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