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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#551
Problem is if you are not of good background then working hard is the only way to reduce the risk of falling futher down on the ladder.

You see, it's the perfect world for the top aristocracies. They have a world in which

- it's harder and harder to the lower echelons to climb up the pole;

- it's a lot easy to fall down the pole due to a number of reasons that ordinary people don't have control in (Financial crisis, terminal illness, etc.)

- For the top dogs, they actually gain from some of the reasons listed above. Guess who gained a lot from the financial crisis and where did all those huge medical bills go?

The result:

- Top aristocracies are the safest guys

- Everyone below (including the small aristocratics) is subject to huge risks of falling down, and the lower you are, the more risk you bear. Of course, unless when you are already at the bottom.

- So everyone has to work super hard, not to climb up, but NOT to drop down.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#552
For those arguing that grit is all that is needed to lift oneself from poverty: I recommend the book "This is all I got" by Lauren Sandler (https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/51229737-this-is-all-...). It's a very powerful, deep account of how even those with incredible tenacity need societal support to succeed.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad has a friend who owns a bus-sized camper/RV in addition to multiple cars and a beachfront home, but doesn't consider himself rich because he can't afford a large boat. Point being, I think people are more aware of the unattained wealth above them than the levels they've already surpassed. (Myself included). The comment you replied to strikes me in the same way, though not nearly as blatant!

"Remember when you wanted what you currently have?"

When I was a kid... I wanted a cabin in the mountains. I would imagine living there (forever), and being more or less away from society.

Fast forward... I own a house in a rural area and have a family. I'll likely never have that cabin in the mountains, and I'll never be free of having to support my family. That's my fault though..I took the path of least resistance and ended up where I'm at - I didn't take the path towards what I dreamed about having as a kid.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#554
post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main point is: Observing a difference in income in the presence of a degree is evidence of correlation , but not of causation .

And mine is that the existence of causation has been established. The debate amongst researchers is over the weights of various causes, not whether it’s just a correlation.

Do you have any research you can point me to? I'd like to learn more about this proof of causality in doubling (genuinely).

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

A lot of things that are social “musts” today were “wants” 30 years ago. Smart phones, unlimited data, eating out 3-4 times a week, Uber Eats delivery. None of this is necessary in order to survive, but not indulging is seen as odd or socially awkward.

But how is that any different than saying in 1918 a car was a want but in 1950 a car was a requirement for many people?

I suspect that the answer to these types of questions is that most people don't want to admit how mind-fucked we all are in to believing the bullshit that we are inundated with from the most powerful classes and how little freedom and financial mobility exists in the USA.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounded like an intuition rather than a conclusion. It’s an intuition that’s very familiar to those born without a leg up. There’s always hope. This isn’t about hope. It’s about seeing things as they are, as the parent suggested.

> It sounded like an intuition rather than a conclusion. Fair enough. > It’s an intuition that’s very familiar to those born without a leg up. I was born to a blue collar family and I lived in a trailer until I was 6. I don't share the intuition. I worked through college while my classmates skipped class, spent loads at starbucks, restaurants, etc. I double majored and graduated with a fraction of the debt of my peer…

If you lack the intuition, it might not be because it doesn't exist. It might be because you were not so intuitive, at least about the nature of the people around you. I don't mean that to sound negative, some people have good fortune with their intuitive sense in the same way some have good fortune to make all the "right" choices at the right time.

It sounds like you made it through some trying circumstances. Good on you. It doesn't mean the rest of us who have witnessed the other side of the veil are incorrect in our own intuitions.

I wish I had grown up with the worldly insight to make money out of any situation along my way without losing my sense of myself or my principles. Instead I encountered recessions and empty job markets. C'est la vie. We all get our breaks somewhere.

So, to extend on that, my point was never one is more noble than the other—but pointing out that asking for datasets and conclusions about intuitions is like asking artwork to explain itself.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only been, what a few hundred years since the industrial revolution began? We haven't given it enough time for the innovators to figure out how to manufacture the needs of society in an overflowing plentiful way that's also automated & low effort. Some things never will be of course.

On the other hand, here in the US we throw out something like 60% of the food we produce and have an obesity problem. One could argue that we've kinda already reached post-scarcity for feeding people, yet people still go hungry.

> and have an obesity problem.

I'd argue that's because we have a ton of junk food availability.

If I wanted to eat a roast and veggies from a local farm not covered in glyphosate, I'm going to pay for it.

Doritos and Cheerios are cheap af. But they're killing people.

We are arguably post scarcity of low quality corn and wheat, but what good is that? And that only comes because of subsidies.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#558

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Starting conditions help tremendously, and I'm not doubting that in the least. One other thing which helps, significantly, is how much the parents value education. Most of the people I know who grew up very poor but now have money had parents that valued education, and pushed their kids to learn. They didn't have shelves of books at home, but they did visit the library weekly. It has to be extremely difficult to focu…

I was wondering if the effect of valuing education is subject to survivorship bias. Take China for example, on average 50% of the grade-9 students have to enter vocational training schools instead of high schools (grade-10 to grade 12). The odds of getting into the top 33 universities in China is less than 2%, and the odds of getting into the next best 100 universities is less than 4%. I'm sure more than 6% of parents value education to the extreme, yet large number of students may not get what they desire no matter how hard they try.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#559
post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need to find a way to work hard such that your rewards are not capped artificially. Well said!

‘Artificially’ works but I think ‘maliciously’ is more apt; regardless of the color of your collar. Also, this comment echoes the same issue as the original maxim and just moved the ‘hard work’ to the ‘find’ing part.

What’s malicious about only being able to cut 50 heads of hair per day or being government mandated to only watch 5 kids per adult?

Nothing. The reality of cutting hair curtails the first mans ability to be a billionaire and the needs of the tiny humans out way the desire of their watchers to maximize their income (which would still be far below billionaire status because the ability to watch a kid is limited by nature as well).

Capture the signup cost of a new onboard to your software? Capture the profit of selling toilet paper to the west coast? Grab a percentage of sales from everyone sales man hired after you?

Those things can scale by their nature and so the people in control of them will scale their capital accordingly.

I would argue the very existence of the tech giants prices there is no malicious entity out there holding down the little people. Just the facts of life. There are only so many scaling jobs (millions of singers, only a few hundred like Beyoncee) and competing against an entrenched interest means you bear the full cost of switching me from my chic fil a tea addiction to your bucket-o-chicken branded one. Good luck with that, I’m headed to chic fil a right now because just thinking about it was enough to remind me of all the good memories and want another one right now. It’s not the tea, I’ll drive past 20 people selling sweet tea to get there, it’s the chic fil a sweet tea.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#560
post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which you can side step by doing your own plumbing, helping friends out with that while talking to people, watching videos online, etc. Good luck apprenticing as a doctor without 6 years of medical school. Or as an architect without architecture school. Let's not overdo the "blue collar jobs are hard to get".

I do my own plumbing. I'm quite good at it. I occasionally fix issues for friends. I am about as far from being a professional plumber as the plumber who tinkers with python is from doing what I do.

The professionals have the same attitude about their trade as we do about (from your post) python. EG... no matter what required work is, I'm 99.9999% confident I can have it working in very little time. It's all that experience/confidence in the field that let's a good engineer give the warm-and-fuzzy feeling to a client. The client _knows_ you are going to knock it out of the park, because that's your level of familiarity and the confidence you project.

A professional tradesmen _knows_ he can show up to your home/business and fix your problem(s) with 99.999% certainty.

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