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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#421
post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

If you lived on a desert island by yourself, the only thing you would get is what you get by hard work. Your life would be better very directly by your work. If you had another person on the island, you could share and exchange, and if you both of you worked, you'd both be better off. By induction, adding more people can result in more people being better off, especially when you add specialization, etc. Where that b…

>communism/socialism

Not the same thing, also you forgot to mention capitalism. You know, the current system under which the exploitation is happening.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#422

For those that don't read, this is a global population survey, not an American one. If you're American, surprise - you're much more likely to believe work pays off. Won't stop the parade of people with unsubstantiated statements about how much society sucks despite the frankly marvelous QoL advances over the past several hundred years. Also, total sample size is 500. Globally.

How much more it could have advanced for the masses under a more optimum system though, is unknown. Take war for example: is the amount of war we wage actually necessary? Is there no better way to do things than we currently do, across all domains? If you think of our world as Sim Earth, what would 2021 look like under near perfect play, how far are we off from that, and for what reasons? One reason might be that we…

What is even a perfect play? Do you think all people on Earth would agree with your notion of a perfect play? If not, which opinions are you willing to sacrifice and why?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things that are social “musts” today were “wants” 30 years ago. Smart phones, unlimited data, eating out 3-4 times a week, Uber Eats delivery. None of this is necessary in order to survive, but not indulging is seen as odd or socially awkward.

> eating out 3-4 times a week What percentage of the western population eats out 3-4 times a week? I'd bet it isn't more than 10-20%, depending on the country. > Uber Eats delivery Not sure the people who do the delivering can afford having food delivered in turn (at least not 3-4 times a week).

According to the survey, 56 percent say they dine at a restaurant, get take out or have a meal delivered 2 to 3 times a week.

Fully 10 percent said they eat out 4 to 6 times a week, and 6 percent said they eat out everyday.

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2019/05/16/survey-shows-how-o...

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#424
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It has to be extremely difficult to focus on school and education when you don't know when your next meal is going to be This is true, but which is the bigger factor in America: parent(s) who are uneducated themselves and do not take an active role in their childrens' education OR food insecurity? I would argue the former. I remember a recent story about Baltimore single mom Tiffany France being shocked that her ki…

You do realize that obesity among the poor isn’t due to eating too much, as much as eating cheap high fat, low nutrition foods, right? In fact having only access to high processed, low nutrition foods is also considered food insecurity. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19320248.2010.5...

Yes, I acknowledge that food and nutrition insecurity exists and that it is a problem. However, my comment questions whether it plays as significant a role in child education as parental mentorship. I live next door to a very poor family that has a single mom and obesity. I interact with the boy almost daily. He is nutrition insecure, and I try to give him fruits and vegetables whenever he comes over.

However, my general impression is that the primary reason he is truant, has reading level of a 3rd grader (he is in 7th grade), doesn't do homework or make an effort in school, etc. isn't so much that he consumes a lot of empty calories. The primary reason IMO is that his single mom is 100% checked out of his education. And actually, more than just his education - practically his entire life. She has no idea who his teachers are, what his grades are, or even what his attendance is. He practically raises himself because his single mom is too burned out after working her jobs and other responsibilities. So... as a result, he drinks a lot of soda, eats a lot of fast food, plays a lot of video games, watches a lot of anime, doesn't go to school, doesn't read, sleeps on a very irregular schedule, etc.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe yo…

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

The myth of rugged individualism is embedded in Western society. Be thankful you live in a position of such privilege to be unaware. I highly recommend you find paths for empathy in your own life. If you're young, the hubris is unavoidable and disregard this comment.

There are many places you can start your research, but maybe looking into how we leverage shame and stigma is a good start: https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-di...

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting conditions help tremendously, and I'm not doubting that in the least. One other thing which helps, significantly, is how much the parents value education. Most of the people I know who grew up very poor but now have money had parents that valued education, and pushed their kids to learn. They didn't have shelves of books at home, but they did visit the library weekly. It has to be extremely difficult to focu…

I would think "starting conditions" includes the parents one has. Also what you say is not quite logic - you're saying that valuing education means people succeed. So why didn't the parents succeed then? I think that's the question, and usually that's because they were born in the wrong place, at the wrong time or under the wrong regime. When their kids are born, it's a different perhaps better time, so better starti…

My parents valued education, their parents less so. So my parents education/training started much later in life, and even then the opportunities were not easily accessible. Both came from subsistence farming/ small holding families, with a large number of siblings, so just inheriting the land was not an outcome they could rely upon.

By becoming trained in their fields it meant they had a better opportunity to earn, but that was limited by the lateness to which they started their careers. When my siblings and I arrived we could be encouraged into education from the earliest possible opportunity.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. Which of these was responsible for China's rise from poverty?

Or the billions of others pulled out of poverty by the miracle of free trade.

Can you elaborate?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#429
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

> How much social mobility we talking? ([...] only talking about the US) My college US history course ~20 years ago very much drove home the fact that (at least at the time) social mobility in the US was the same as in India. The surprise, of course, was that India has a caste system, while the US narrative is freedom; if you work hard, you’ll get ahead. I don’t remember the sources, but the rate of social mobility (…

> My college US history course ~20 years ago very much drove home the fact that (at least at the time) social mobility in the US was the same as in India.

This is flatly false, and to be honest it's a little embarrassing that you would parrot it without Googling it (which you were happy to do to pull up a tangential stat that didn't contradict the dishonest narrative you're pushing). The US is ranked 27th out of the 82 countries the World Economic Forum studied in 2020, and India is ranked _76th_.[1]

On top of that, note that Denmark is ranked #1 for social mobility in the WEF study. The relevant topic to this thread is pre-transfer social mobility (ie before taxes/welfare), where the US and Denmark look almost identical![2]

That doesn't suggest that Denmark's policies are useless: transfers are an effective poverty-fighting tool, and I have no doubt that the economic floor in Denmark is a much more comfortable one. I'm all for a stronger welfare state due to the human costs of poverty.

But this is all irrelevant to the topic at hand, and the false claim all over this thread that the US is uniquely bad at providing opportunity and mobility to those without it. We're better than the majority of the developed world at this, partially due to the productivity incentives created by how much more precarious poverty here is compared to OECD countries with the strongest safety nets. I should be clear: I don't think we're at an optimal point on the spectrum, and I think sacrificing some economic dynamism to palliate the human costs of poverty is worthwhile. But the claim that we're uniquely socially immobile by global or even OECD standards is a flat lie, propagated by people too simple-minded to understand the concept of a trade-off.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index...

[2] When looking exclusively at wages (before taxes and transfers), Danish and American social mobility are very similar. It is only after taxes and transfers are taken into account that Danish social mobility improves, indicating that Danish economic redistribution policies are the key drivers of greater mobility. Additionally, Denmark's greater investment in public education did not improve educational mobility significantly, meaning children of non-college educated parents are still unlikely to receive college education, although this public investment did result in improved cognitive skills amongst poor Danish children compared to their American peers.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#430
post #274

I don't mean to be cynical - I ultimately want to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way. The original article and the surrounding comments remind me of the Tyler Durden quote from Fight club: "I see all this potential, and I see it squandered. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables - slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we…

Many people live paycheck to paycheck just to barely cover food and shelter for their children. I don’t think the problem is influencers, it’s actual, old fashioned, poverty.

> Many people live paycheck to paycheck

Roughly half of US salary earners, per BLS:

* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/the-biggest-lie-in-personal-fin...

(Though that includes students with summer jobs; still a lot though.)

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