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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#81

Post by mistermann »

optimiz3 wrote: post #21

For those that don't read, this is a global population survey, not an American one. If you're American, surprise - you're much more likely to believe work pays off. Won't stop the parade of people with unsubstantiated statements about how much society sucks despite the frankly marvelous QoL advances over the past several hundred years. Also, total sample size is 500. Globally.

How much more it could have advanced for the masses under a more optimum system though, is unknown. Take war for example: is the amount of war we wage actually necessary? Is there no better way to do things than we currently do, across all domains?

If you think of our world as Sim Earth, what would 2021 look like under near perfect play, how far are we off from that, and for what reasons? One reason might be that we don't seem to think and talk about ideas like this very much, or perhaps not in a skillful enough manner.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#83

Post by merpnderp »

cousin_it wrote: post #17
hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. Which of these was responsible for China's rise from poverty?

Or the billions of others pulled out of poverty by the miracle of free trade.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#84

Post by [deleted] »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #61

I think one thing that changed in recent years is that there are more possibilities for hitting it big. Sure, it's survivor bias and all, but it takes one successful indie game (Minecraft, Flappy Bird), a good investment in the right time (early Bitcoin, early Ethereum, GME in December) and you can never work again in your life. Similarly if you are lucky enough and your Twitch channel becomes popular, you can stream…

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#86

Post by 52-6F-62 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #60
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

> A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success stories, but it seems more and more people are seeing through the illusion. I don't think we can conclude that from anything. It could just as easily be that our previous optimism was warranted but we've become influenced by a more pessimistic media narrative. To be clear, I don't have a position because there doesn't seem to be…

It sounded like an intuition rather than a conclusion.

It’s an intuition that’s very familiar to those born without a leg up.

There’s always hope. This isn’t about hope. It’s about seeing things as they are, as the parent suggested.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#87

Post by apexalpha »

hdhjebebeb wrote: post #73
yathern wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

> Northern Europe, not known for their abundance of slaves, is wealthier. Northern Europe didn't import a lot of slaves but they sure as hell benefitted financially from the slave trade. > Colonialism was not a huge success for England when you look at how much it cost. It was great for national pride and as a symbol of their "greatness" however. The motivations for colonizing were primarily economic. Do you think th…

Countries like Netherlands, France, England definitely profited form the slave trade. But there are many European nations, Germany, Austria, Scandinavia, that didn't.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#88

Post by rejectedandsad »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #62
sokoloff wrote: post #9

> The informed public – wealthier, more educated, and frequent consumers of news – remain far more trusting of every institution than the mass population. Is “informed public” an accepted term of art in social science research? Because if not, that seems like an incredibly (and gratuitously) biased label.

The funniest thing to me is this mid-wit notion of thinking you are 'informed' by reading news sites and getting a degree from a 21st century university.

Yes, far more informed than reading Dinesh D’Souza Facebook posts or natural wellness Instagram stories.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#89

Post by LAC-Tech »

hawk_ wrote: post #19
lr4444lr wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour You're undermining your own argument. Those things, collectively, were the norm for most of human history, not that "short window of time", so something else must have happened that made people optimistic about hard work yielding the fruits of a better life (however you want to define that).

If you were living in the west at that time it was true for you, not for the slaves toiling it away in the colonies. America's trading partners wealth was all built upon that. Plenty of America's own wealth was built upon slavery, even after slavery was technically outlawed.

What time period are you talking about?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#90

Post by mc32 »

altacc wrote: post #52
cousin_it wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. Which of these was responsible for China's rise from poverty?

All of them. It's certainly true that there are other important factors and I don't think the parent poster's list is exhaustive, but these are crucial factors in China's current rise. Slavery: we know there are factories inside their "reeducation camps" Colonialism: Internally, Han Chinese are encouraged to migrate & take over areas of the country where other ethnics groups have traditionally been the majority. Abro…

Chinas economic rise predates those forays into modern re-education camps (different from the cultural revolution ones).

It’s known that the use of slavery or slave labor stunts growth rather than enhances it because rather than innovating you use “subsidized”manual labor while others are innovating and progressing and using less expensive labor (mechanization, automation).

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