Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life • Hacker News Board

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#341

Post by bluGill » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #212

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

> How much social mobility we talking? ([...] only talking about the US) My college US history course ~20 years ago very much drove home the fact that (at least at the time) social mobility in the US was the same as in India. The surprise, of course, was that India has a caste system, while the US narrative is freedom; if you work hard, you’ll get ahead. I don’t remember the sources, but the rate of social mobility (…

I've seen those reports myself. However they don't note anything about the entire class changing. Today even the lowest cast things nothing about having an entire encyclopedia in their pocket (a smart phone), 40 years ago encyclopedias were something you needed to be middle class to have one in your house, and nobody could have them in a pocket (meaning you both could afford one, and the space to store it at home)

Going back farther, 120 years ago cars were the play thing of the super rich. Now the poor have much nicer cars (including options like electric start, not to mention the unheard of AC), that are fast and never break (by todays standard they break down all the time).

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#342

Post by gjulianm » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #174

afpx wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be nihilism? A person's purpose in life doesn't have to be tied to working hard (especially if that strategy has diminishing returns).

I was raised to believe certain truths, such as hard work and sacrifice pays off. It's guided much of my life, from pursuing education, building a career, settling down and starting a family. I couldn't imagine what my life would be if I had believed that I am incapable of changing the circumstances of my being. It would be incredibly hard to live in an arbitrary society. That would likely lead me to the idea of nihi…

> such as hard work and sacrifice pays off

Most don't disagree with that. The point is that the rate is different for different people. For some people, a decent live (house, bed, food) will take a lot of effort. For others, they might be born already into that.

What's important is that this is a discussion about policy and systemic problems. You can't address systemic issues with individual solutions (such as "poverty would be solved if people worked hard"), it's nonsense the same way it is to address individual problems with systemic solutions ("if you're homeless, ask the government to enact affordable housing policies).

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#343

Post by kmonsen » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

fullstop wrote: post #91

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Starting conditions help tremendously, and I'm not doubting that in the least. One other thing which helps, significantly, is how much the parents value education. Most of the people I know who grew up very poor but now have money had parents that valued education, and pushed their kids to learn. They didn't have shelves of books at home, but they did visit the library weekly. It has to be extremely difficult to focu…

First off so, your parents are part of the starting conditions obviously. But I think I read that from twin studies there are indications that parents does not help all that much.

In the U.S. just focusing on education can be bad, if you pick the wrong one you just get a giant student loan and not much else.

Finally, even though starting conditions and luck are extremely important, you can’t do much about them. So hard and smart work is still the best option to improve. Going back and giving itself better starting conditions is not an option.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#344

Post by rantwasp » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

nr2x wrote: post #274

B4CKlash wrote: post #251

I don't mean to be cynical - I ultimately want to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way. The original article and the surrounding comments remind me of the Tyler Durden quote from Fight club: "I see all this potential, and I see it squandered. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables - slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we…

Many people live paycheck to paycheck just to barely cover food and shelter for their children. I don’t think the problem is influencers, it’s actual, old fashioned, poverty.

I think there’s multiple buckets here.

One is the old fashioned poverty you bring up. It exists, it sucks. A lot of people are struggling.

Another one is people that technically have all they need but spend money they don’t have on things that they don’t really need. This leads to being stuck “working hard” and for working longer than you would normally do (since you don’t really have a choice - you’ve gotta pay that loan)

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#345

Post by renewiltord » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

altacc wrote: post #52

cousin_it wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. Which of these was responsible for China's rise from poverty?

All of them. It's certainly true that there are other important factors and I don't think the parent poster's list is exhaustive, but these are crucial factors in China's current rise. Slavery: we know there are factories inside their "reeducation camps" Colonialism: Internally, Han Chinese are encouraged to migrate & take over areas of the country where other ethnics groups have traditionally been the majority. Abro…

This is revisionism. China’s rise is a classical story of pre-industrial to manufacturing economy (and then partly services economy) transition.

China’s policies are probably the largest force for human happiness in the last two decades simply because of the sheer scale of people uplifted from poverty through industrialization.

The fact that they’re a totalitarian dictatorship means that they stand opposed to us but they are not incompetent.

China’s regime is ridiculously popular for a reason: It’s the economy, stupid.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#346

Post by wpietri » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Yup. There is no doubt individual effort matters. But the extent to which it matters is sharply constrained by systemic factors. And escape from those factors is often about luck, not effort.

I'll use myself as an example. Going by parents, I do way better than one would expect. But I was lucky to be born into a time where my neuroatypicality was suddenly useful in an industry big enough that it created social upheaval and space for some to rise. Lucky indeed; 50 years earlier I would have made a mediocre car mechanic, somebody who only worked hard on the rare car problem that was interesting.

And timing aside, two other lucky items pointed me at tech. One was getting an early computer (TRS-80 CoCo) as a gift from a well-off friend of my mom's. The other was my dad being a software developer himself. Which only happened because in the mid 1960s his dad was an exec at an insurance company that had just rented one of these newfangled minicomputers but didn't know what to do with it. My dad didn't have any training, but he was a) smart and b) a bad student in college, so my grandfather used his connections to try him out on computing. Something that was only possible because they were white; Milwaukee had no black insurance executives in 1965.

Have I worked hard at points? Sure. Have I worked half as hard as a restaurant prep cook or a single mom who cleans offices at night? Nope. Indeed, the hardest times I worked were at the shittiest, lowest-paying jobs. Working the grill at McDonald's. Running an injection molding press to make mirror rims for cars I couldn't possibly afford. Since getting into tech my life has been comparatively cushy, and getting cushier. Way better than what my middle-school automated career counseling service suggested I was destined for: bowling pin machine mechanic.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#347

Post by Frost1x » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

throwkeep wrote: post #312

ceilingcorner wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things that are social “musts” today were “wants” 30 years ago. Smart phones, unlimited data, eating out 3-4 times a week, Uber Eats delivery. None of this is necessary in order to survive, but not indulging is seen as odd or socially awkward.

Also living space per person has nearly doubled since the 70s. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-s...

This was linked elsewhere and it only talks about home ownership and says nothing about renting which is the only viable option for many Americans. It doesn't say how many are renting vs owning and how renting has fared in growth/decline per capita.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#348

Post by blitz_skull » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

nr2x wrote: post #274

B4CKlash wrote: post #251

I don't mean to be cynical - I ultimately want to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful way. The original article and the surrounding comments remind me of the Tyler Durden quote from Fight club: "I see all this potential, and I see it squandered. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables - slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we…

Many people live paycheck to paycheck just to barely cover food and shelter for their children. I don’t think the problem is influencers, it’s actual, old fashioned, poverty.

Many less people live like this, however, than 50 years ago. It IS old-fashioned poverty, combined with exponentially increased expectations.

And there's a thousand books out there that prove that folks on the flip side aren't really any happier than those in poverty. Living a life devoid of purpose is just as soul-sucking as living a life of poverty. Perhaps more so.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#349

Post by masklinn » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

ferrumfist wrote: post #131

nexus_dave wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2019, immigrant entrepreneurs made up 21.7 percent of all business owners in the United States, despite making up just over 13.6 percent of the population and 17.1 percent of the U.S. labor force. As an immigrant I can assure you that my starting position was not that great. It is super sad to see the west being turned into an epicurean type world.

It's because immigrants proactively make their lives better while average Americans reactively complain about why their lives aren't perfect

Or it’s because a fraction of immigrants does do with means and for the express purpose of this, essentially self-selecting for the task?

Immigrants also make up a disproportionate portion of poverty population.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#350

Post by HarryHirsch » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #217

paulluuk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

A lot of things that are social “musts” today were “wants” 30 years ago. Smart phones, unlimited data, eating out 3-4 times a week, Uber Eats delivery. None of this is necessary in order to survive, but not indulging is seen as odd or socially awkward.

I'd disagree about "not necessary". Cellphones are a necessity now because payphones have gone the way of the dinosaur, there go 100 dollars for a family plan, internet is a necessity, there go 50 dollars more, and especially the expenses for the second car because no one can make do on one income, especially at the lower end of the income scale.

And childcare expenses, of course. Especially childcare.