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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#201

Post by 52-6F-62 »

datapls wrote: post #128
52-6F-62 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe yo…

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

You're asking for measurements to something not measurable.

I can't relate to you my experiences or the experiences of others I've known or just observed (I'm a keen observer) without just giving you anecdotes.

I could counter and ask you to measurably prove that people are not looked down upon for coming from a lower station, but I think we'd have some trouble with that as well. (Christians* are some of the worst for it—coming from one who grew up "in the church")

* Thought I should asterisk that so we don't go down a discussion about what makes a "true" christian. It's a broad scope and label of convenience. It's not meant to slander anyone practicing their religion. It's most certainly not isolated to Christians. Most of the encounters I've had are with people who tend to believe themselves somehow more... esoterically enlightened. It doesn't even make them bad people—just filled with hubris.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#202

Post by usaar333 »

simiones wrote: post #152
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

> You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. That is a laughably low bar, and it is unlikely for the trend you are describing to continue past the move from poor to lower middle class. In a fair society, with equality of opportunity, it should be…

> n a fair society, with equality of opportunity, it should be equally likely for a child born in a trailer park to become high income earner as it is for Bill Gate's child. That is the normal social mobility we should expect in a democratic society with no class structure.

Maybe aspirational, but it's not reasonable to expect this.

More educated parents both earn more money and educate their children more (and not per se due to their higher earnings).

It's hard to compensate for that.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#203

Post by ticviking »

A lot of this is just a reversion to the mean. For most of history the opportunity to advance your station was basically nonexistent. We're starting to see that pattern return where a variety of institutions(including naked oppression and conquest) created briefly a place where some categories of people could get a head in a dynamic society.

All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#204

Post by merpnderp »

hawk_ wrote: post #19
lr4444lr wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour You're undermining your own argument. Those things, collectively, were the norm for most of human history, not that "short window of time", so something else must have happened that made people optimistic about hard work yielding the fruits of a better life (however you want to define that).

If you were living in the west at that time it was true for you, not for the slaves toiling it away in the colonies. America's trading partners wealth was all built upon that. Plenty of America's own wealth was built upon slavery, even after slavery was technically outlawed.

You realize that humanity is several hundred thousand years old, and most of that was brutal slavery, of the strong imposing their will on the weak, of kings and chieftains using their gangs to take from the rest?

If you think American slavery was unique, you need to get your money back for you education. The Romans had a special tool to knock out the teeth of slaves so they could be better abused sexually. The N. African kingdoms castrated their slaves so that they would be more docile. There are a plethora of horror stories from history, because that was the norm. Just like it is in the norm in nature for the strong to take from the weak.

What we have today is a brief moment of respite, but it sure looks like a hell of a lot of people want to regress to the mean.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#205

Post by kh1 »

faitswulff wrote: post #121
paulluuk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

The Wall Street Journal has a great infographic here comparing how many hours of worth it would take to pay median rent today versus in 1968: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-much-does-the-federal-minim... Spoiler: it’s not pretty.

I just looked at graphics, but that's comparing minimum wage against various goods, isn't it? So it would be interesting to see the comparison between median wage and rent, etc. From the data, however, it looks like income inequality expanded quite a bit.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#206

Post by ceilingcorner »

I have noticed an increase in negative attitudes toward work, hard work, and generally the idea that one should sacrifice time/pleasure/etc. to reach a goal.

I blame it on finance, crypto, and social media. When you can see millions of people casually get rich simply by holding an asset, the narrative of “working hard pays off” gets buried.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#207

Post by criddell »

bko wrote: post #93
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

You're right that telling somebody they are screwed wouldn't help. What would help is figuring out the factors that actually lead to success. I'm guessing things like education, good healthcare, financial literacy, access to capital, role models, etc... all matter.

Work on programs to make sure these basic things are available to everybody. Start mentorship and apprenticeship programs early. Work for a strong social safety net so that people don't have to worry if they start a business and it fails, they won't be homeless or without healthcare.

So don't teach hopelessness. Instead recognize the failures and fix them.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#208

Post by TuringNYC »

michaelt wrote: post #156
bko wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

If you've got shitty social mobility You might want your children to think social mobility is possible if they work hard enough But you don't want your politicians to think social mobility is possible through hard work. Because if they don't know you've got a social mobility problem, how are they going to fix it?

>> If you've got shitty social mobility

>> You might want your children to think social mobility is possible if they work hard enough

I'd definitely want my children to work hard, understand how the world works, but I also don't want them to spin their wheels for 25yrs only to realize their car was on a jack and not going anywhere.

There are glass ceilings in certain countries and especially in certain industries. Recognizing that is important IMHO. I hope we break all such glass ceilings, but one has to recognize they are present, recognize the odds, and then make a decision to give away large parts of your time to attempt to do that.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#209

Post by Jotra7 »

ferrumfist wrote: post #131
nexus_dave wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2019, immigrant entrepreneurs made up 21.7 percent of all business owners in the United States, despite making up just over 13.6 percent of the population and 17.1 percent of the U.S. labor force. As an immigrant I can assure you that my starting position was not that great. It is super sad to see the west being turned into an epicurean type world.

It's because immigrants proactively make their lives better while average Americans reactively complain about why their lives aren't perfect

Your comments sound like something an angsty teen would say.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#210

Post by bko »

themihai wrote: post #137
bko wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

>> What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? I think it's better to be realistic about your chances and it may help to drive the political discourse into the right direction as well. After all this is a political issue. In the end as others have said here it's more important to have a balanced, happy life and good health than to chase the…

> After all this is a political issue.

It's really not. Hard work does lead to a better life. It's fulfilling in its own right, at least for me. That's why I go to the gym and push myself regularly. If I loaf around all day, I don't feel well. I find meaning and satisfaction from being productive or putting in effort. It's not only societal but biological.

Things are harder for some people, sure. But for children, the bar is so low in the US that a minimal amount of effort could put you on the right track. My experience was basically that showing up and doing what you're supposed to do puts you above 50% of your peers. Consider Hoboken High School. 12% of students are math proficient. NJ is 42, while the graduation rate is 90%. The bar is very low.

[0] https://www.publicschoolreview.com/hoboken-high-school-profi...

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