Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life • Hacker News Board

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#151

Post by airza » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

I guess the implication is that only a small minority of poor people are trying hard enough to avoid these scenarios, but if the reality reflects that most don't, what is the role of willpower or 'managing' here?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#152

Post by simiones » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

> You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments.

That is a laughably low bar, and it is unlikely for the trend you are describing to continue past the move from poor to lower middle class.

In a fair society, with equality of opportunity, it should be equally likely for a child born in a trailer park to become high income earner as it is for Bill Gate's child. That is the normal social mobility we should expect in a democratic society with no class structure. We are so laughably far off from this everywhere in the world...

And note that I completely accept that becoming a billionaire is going to be extraordinarily rare and a product of BOTH extreme luck and good work ethic. Or I would accept that, if not for the fact that being born the child of a billionaire is a guarantee to this future, or as close to a guarantee as one can ask for.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#153

Post by sidlls » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

realce wrote: post #8

Today's ethos seems to be get yours hook or crook so you can basically cash out of society.

I got mine honestly: a good ol' fashioned tech IPO. Soon as I cash out the rest of my unvested shares (next year or so), I'll definitely consider "cashing out." Why bother working for $400k - $500k per year total compensation when my investment portfolio is earning $400k or more and I have no debts?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#154

Post by fullstop » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

JohnWhigham wrote: post #18

So we have this sentiment, how long will it take to be reflected in business schools, those leading these companies? We need at least boomers and Gen Xers to die off since they were instilled with the old way of go-into-the-place-and-give-a-firm-handshake bullshit. Are we looking at potentially decades before we seriously start making tangible changes with our relationships with work?

I question why you have lumped gen x and boomers together regarding job seeking.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#155

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #77

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

My understanding is that social mobility implies being able to climb the ladder from destitute to poor, poor to modestly wealthy, etc. and not referring to jumping to the 1% from destitution.

Ok, sure, but that isn't the same thing as meritocracy is it? It is hard to justify to the population at large that billionaires earned their wealth and deserve to keep it when they could only get to that position by being born out of the right womb. That's just a different kind of aristocracy.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#156

Post by michaelt » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #93

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

If you've got shitty social mobility

You might want your children to think social mobility is possible if they work hard enough

But you don't want your politicians to think social mobility is possible through hard work. Because if they don't know you've got a social mobility problem, how are they going to fix it?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#157

Post by B4CKlash » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

rdtwo wrote: post #39

etempleton wrote: post #30

One trend I have noticed is a grass is always greener hiring mentality at a lot of companies. That is, looking external for new hires versus promoting from within. This forces folks to jump around for career progression. And those that are not as willing to jump around feeling discouraged that no matter how hard they work they will likely be overlooked for someone from the outside. To this end hard work is discourage…

Promoting from within means you have to forgo quick wins for long them gains. That’s just not how US managers age leaders think.

Just wanted to highlight that it's not a problem we're destined to deal with. Fix the incentives ala fix the problems.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#158

Post by colanderman » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

paaaaaaaaaa wrote: post #97

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #56

Every morning, I get up at 5, and go for a two-mile walk. Often, my walk coincides with the route of the garbage collection truck. Man, those dudes work hard . It makes my shoulders ache, just watching them. They are fast, energetic, efficient, and precise. Around here, they are generally Latinos, and they have quite high-paying jobs, compared to a lot of their peers. It's a dirty, dangerous job, and the benefits are…

I respect them too. Here in the UK I always try to say good morning and thanks to our bin collectors. Do you know how many hours do they do? Is it the fact that when their route is complete they are finished for the day? Because then there is a pretty good incentive to work hard and fast.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how this, and tipping, works. Here (suburb of Boston), curbside trash collection is like a 10-second affair. Do you like wait outside on a lawn chair for hours and then run up to them waving your arms and shouting over the noise of the compactor truck?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#159

Post by jfrunyon » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

paaaaaaaaaa wrote: post #97

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #56

Every morning, I get up at 5, and go for a two-mile walk. Often, my walk coincides with the route of the garbage collection truck. Man, those dudes work hard . It makes my shoulders ache, just watching them. They are fast, energetic, efficient, and precise. Around here, they are generally Latinos, and they have quite high-paying jobs, compared to a lot of their peers. It's a dirty, dangerous job, and the benefits are…

I respect them too. Here in the UK I always try to say good morning and thanks to our bin collectors. Do you know how many hours do they do? Is it the fact that when their route is complete they are finished for the day? Because then there is a pretty good incentive to work hard and fast.

I highly doubt that they're salaried, so the incentive would actually be to take longer to make more money. A more likely incentive for them to work fast is that they'll be fired if they don't.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#160

Post by cheschire » Tue, Jun 15, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

faitswulff wrote: post #121

paulluuk wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really know the stats, but I'm curious if this is true. Yes, GDP has been going up for a long time in many countries, and so the "average wealth" of each generation is going up. However, is the same true for purchasing power? Sometimes you hear about these mythical stories of janitors who could afford to actually buy a house, despite having two children and their partners being stay-at-home moms. And yet toda…

The Wall Street Journal has a great infographic here comparing how many hours of worth it would take to pay median rent today versus in 1968: https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-much-does-the-federal-minim... Spoiler: it’s not pretty.

https://archive.is/vMKTY